Belgium belgian Order of Leopold l

[Alex K]

I ment the ribbon, If you want to buy a replacement ribbon and roset for your specimen. I mean that it will cost you more then one euro. For American and English medals the price of a replacement ribbon is cheap becouse the demand is high. For a knight of the Leopold order it is ok, but the roset is more difficult.

It has been a wile since i went to a medal company to ask for a replacement ribbon so I can't say how much it can cost. maybee there is someone else here who can help you out? If you want that off course.

Thanks for the info. I will look out for the correct assembly as there is nothing more annoying knowing that the medal you have is assembled with the incorrect ribbon.

regards

Alex

[Tim B]

I agree, I have seen these Leopold 1 Officers with a plain (Knight class) ribbon for sale and it only adds to the confusion of an already confusing award structure (for me anyway).

So, I know I need a ribbon with a rosette here, but do I also need to have one with the crossed swords as this particular one is from the military division? I believe this one dates from the early 1900's up to...1950ish, but I don't know the minute detail differences in crown styles, enameling, etc.

Tim

[Tim B]

Well, a step closer, and looking Great!!!

Tim

[Tim B]

Now, it appears I need a palm to plug those holes! Any ideas where I might get lucky finding one of those? Gilt I assume? You can barely see the old outline of the one that used to be there.

Tim

[Jef]

I agree, I have seen these Leopold 1 Officers with a plain (Knight class) ribbon for sale and it only adds to the confusion of an already confusing award structure (for me anyway).

So, I know I need a ribbon with a rosette here, but do I also need to have one with the crossed swords as this particular one is from the military division? I believe this one dates from the early 1900's up to...1950ish, but I don't know the minute detail differences in crown styles, enameling, etc.

Tim

Hello Tim,

Have you ever tried this address: http://www.eekelers-centini.be/catalog/ind...hp/cPatch/32_37

kind regards,

Jef

[Tim B]

Hi Jef!

Yes, I have looked over their site and had considered getting the ribbon there if necessary (about $30.!!) but Hendrik was kind enough to find me a nice original period replacement piece for a lot less!!

I do not see any attachments being sold on their site and had considered asking them, but figured if they did have extra palms they probably wouldn't be correctly marked with the "A" anymore. Its a chance and I should ask, afterall the worse they can tell me is no. They might point me in the right direction though. Thanks for making me rethink it!!

I looked the ribbon over closely again last night and still feel its a palm and not crossed swords. The irregular shape and width of the shadow tell me its not swords. The swords attachment on my Leopold II has four mounting pins and I used that as a guide on this example with only two holes in the ribbon, but of all the pieces that I have seen with a palm attached, the palm is more horizontal and not slanted to this angle. Any thoughts about that guys??

Tim

[Hendrik]

I very much doubt Eekelers will be able to help. Newly (!!!) manufactured palms might be possible with firms as De Greef or Fibru in Brussels but they will be so evidently new looking, they may well clash. Positioning of the palm is irrelevant really, horizontal or at an angle, both go.

Cheers,

Hendrik

[Tim B]

:cheeky: Okay, good to know and helps put my mind at ease. Remember, a mind is a terrible thing...

If I match this one up, I at least want it to be correct and complete, so...the hunt is on!

Tim

[Tim B]

Well guys,

I have found a gilt Albert palm, didn't take it just yet, but have one being held for me. However, I got thinking about this some more and wondered about the spacing of the holes.

On the French attachments, the stars have prongs close together and the palms are spaced a bit further apart. So now I am wondering if the Belgian palms would have had the prongs spaced this far apart or are these holes from crossed swords or something else altogether?

I know the holes (frontside) are not from the mounting pins as you can see those on the reverse and they are different. So, what does everyone think? Anyone have a palm that can tell me how far apart the pins are?

Tim

[Hendrik]

Hello Tim,

Measured 4 and 3 have the pins 23mm apart, one has them 25mm apart.

Cheers,

Hendrik

[Tim B]

Hendrik!

Thank you my friend; I just dug my Belgian CdG out of the safe and it looks like 24mm on the bronze one. Probably slight differences in the way they were affixed (bent) on each one. I keep forgetting that the pins were towards the ends and bent towards center on these.

Looks like it would fit and pretty much confirms my initial beliefs that it was in fact a palm that was on the ribbon and not crossed swords or something else.

So, do you think its worth 10 GBP? I think I am getting raped, but what are my chances finding another one? I do have more leads/people looking and they seem hopeful. This one is supposed to be in good condition with the pins intact.

Tim

[Tim B]

Well, instead of just always asking questions, I am going to try to add something to this thread that may help some collectors differentiate the different crown suspensions and thus better date their Leopold I Orders. If I make mistakes or omit any styles, please add comments and additional examples.

During my recent transition into Belgian awards, some observations made as I browsed the different sites lead me to believe the following information applies to the attached collage of various Leopold I Orders.

See the PIC for reference:

A: Order of Leopold I, Military Division w-Espagnol Style Crown circa.1832. Maker: Unknown

B: Order of Leopold I, Civil Division w-Bombe' Style Crown circa.1839. Note how the crown widened at the center compared to the earlier Espagnol style. Maker: Unknown

C: Order of Leopold I, Civil Division w-Gonfle' Style Crown circa.1845. Maker: Unknown

D: Order of Leopold I, Civil Division w-Aplati Style Crown circa.1900. This is the style associated with WWI and WWII. Maker: Wolfers of Brussels

E: Order of Leopold I, Civil Division w-Aplati Style Crown circa.1951. Notice how the ends of the crown have been flattened or squared off. This piece has the bilingual center. Maker: Unknown

Additional Notes:

- The crown styles appear to have remained consistent throughout each period for both military and civil awards.

- The (D) and (E) type crowns are very similar and may in fact be the same style with the differences attributed simply to different manufactures as I have noticed both styles occasionally with the monolingual ?French only? and bilingual ?French/Dutch? centers.

- These particular crown examples were taken off of, or compared to, current and previous sale items at various dealer sites and is presented here for informational purposes only.

Tim :cheers:

[g_deploige]

Dear Tim

the juwlers from the different crowns are for the :

A: Joseph Germain Dutalis, first maker of the order of Leopold (periode 1832 until circa 1846)

B: Josse Allard, 2nd maker of the order of Leopold (periode circa 1835 until circa 1850)

C: Charles Jacques Buls 3d maker of the order of leopold (circa 1840 until circa 1885 when is son stoped with the firm, he has been the Maire of Brussels) C: is the second type of crown of Buls

Guy :beer:

[Tim B]

Hello Guy,

Excellent information!!

Tim

[Tim B]

Hello all!

Well, its been a few months. The gilt palm I had on hold from a certain UK dealer fell through as he was "too busy" to be bothered for a quick PIC of the palm I was going to pay for. So, I told him not to worry, as I won't be spending any more money there and now he will have more time in the future.

Anyway, I just received another one, for FREE, and wanted to ask some opinions on the issue before completing the placement.

Here's a comparison shot of two palms I have; the silver Albert palm with the cutouts is the type I had hoped to put on the Leopold I shown earlier. I really like this variety and have seen gilt ones; they are very sharp and classic looking! The gilt one is the one I am considering placing on the Leopold I. It's nice, and in great shape, just no cutouts.

Not knowing if any of these were made at different eras, I want some "others" to give their opinions on the choice. Greatly appreciate any thoughts!

Tim

[Tim B]

I temporarily placed the gilt palm on the Leo I; the pins fit the existing holes perfectly but, I have not bent them down yet.

Looks really nice but, is the style correct for this Order? I want to be correct.

Tim

[Tim B]

Decision made--it's done. I like it!

Tim

[Tim B]

Here's a later manufactured Knight's Class. Even though it was made post 1952, the quality is still quite nice IMO. I seen the ribbon had shadows from the crossed swords and figured the recipient switched the ribbon around after it faded. Was going to swap it back when I noticed the front side was also faded with a near perfect shadow under the swords on the front side as well. So, left it alone.

Another interesting point is the swords only have two attaching pins and not the typical four (1/each corner).

Tim

[Tim B]

The center is raised quite a bit (small cone) and the detail is pretty good compared to same era Leopold II pieces.

Tim

[Tim B]

It's been awhile on these so I thought I would add another. I really love the design and old-time craftsmanship on these Leopold's!

Another Officer class, this one with the bilingual center and WW1 swords for the veteran. The maker is not known (by me at least) but, the quality on this one is very close to the earlier Wolfer's Leo 1 that I posted earlier. A very noticeable and higher quality example when compared to the Knight's Class example immediately prior to this one.

I have also noted other Wolfer's products that did not compare in quality to this one, which makes me believe perhaps all the manufacturers produced products of varying quality and level of detail to cater to different customer's requests and wallets.

I like it!

Tim

[Tim B]

Just exquisite enamel; no damages and the colors are still fresh!

Enjoy!

Tim

[farmer]

Well, instead of just always asking questions, I am going to try to add something to this thread that may help some collectors differentiate the different crown suspensions and thus better date their Leopold I Orders. If I make mistakes or omit any styles, please add comments and additional examples.

During my recent transition into Belgian awards, some observations made as I browsed the different sites lead me to believe the following information applies to the attached collage of various Leopold I Orders.

See the PIC for reference:

A: Order of Leopold I, Military Division w-Espagnol Style Crown circa.1832. Maker: Unknown

B: Order of Leopold I, Civil Division w-Bombe' Style Crown circa.1839. Note how the crown widened at the center compared to the earlier Espagnol style. Maker: Unknown

C: Order of Leopold I, Civil Division w-Gonfle' Style Crown circa.1845. Maker: Unknown

D: Order of Leopold I, Civil Division w-Aplati Style Crown circa.1900. This is the style associated with WWI and WWII. Maker: Wolfers of Brussels

E: Order of Leopold I, Civil Division w-Aplati Style Crown circa.1951. Notice how the ends of the crown have been flattened or squared off. This piece has the bilingual center. Maker: Unknown

Additional Notes:

- The crown styles appear to have remained consistent throughout each period for both military and civil awards.

- The (D) and (E) type crowns are very similar and may in fact be the same style with the differences attributed simply to different manufactures as I have noticed both styles occasionally with the monolingual ?French only? and bilingual ?French/Dutch? centers.

- These particular crown examples were taken off of, or compared to, current and previous sale items at various dealer sites and is presented here for informational purposes only.

Tim

Tim,

My info-addition to L 1 crown styles.

Added to your list should be the second 'rounded wide' style crown in use from 1839-1845 (more-less) as manufactured by Buls (some categorize this as "1st Bulls style").

Your 'B' type is known to be used from 1835 (when Dutalis stopped and Allard was awarded the contract) until 1839 ( when Buls became the provider to the chancerry).

Also, there is another type between 'Gonfle' and the 'Classic' - I call this type 'widened-flat' as used between 1890 (circa) and WW1. This last type is limited to Wolfers, Heremans and perhaps Walravens. Another unique crown was made some time during last quarter of XIX c. by an unspecified French maker and is quite different.

Buls's second crown ('gonfle') was also used by Wolfers and Heremans (these two firms took dies from Buls when firm closed some time around 1885). To my knowledge, those not marked with Buls's mark (some call this a mastermark) were made from that time on and no one seems to know exactly when Wolfers/Heremans stopped making those ('gonfle') crowns but quality was not as good as Buls's, especially center disks but appearance was nearly identical. I have quite a few and some of those show very distinct die-crack line (none bear the Buls hallmark) so I presume it is either Wolfers or Heremans.

I think Heremans started making the new 'widened-flat' crown when 'gonfle' die finally gave out - in my opinion that happened some time during 1890's. Wolfers's cased badges (with old address) have been seen with 'gonfle' and the pre-classic 'sub-style' which I call 'widened-pointed' (nearly exact as earliest styles of the Leopold II Order). There was yet another crown used by Wolfers prior to their 'classic' one but I feel it was sort of a 'transitional' one with rather minor differences - not easily spotted unless amongst others of similar type.

Your "E" style - so called 'massive' is considered to be a WW2 and later style and is considerably different from the 'classic' type as made by Wolfers, Heremans, Walrevens, Fish, DeGreef and others. To be fair, all of those firms had their own little 'variations' to that type but 'massive' was just different - possibly (in my opinion) designed by DeGreef.

Post 'massive' crowns are a mix of pretty much everything and there seems no one, (uniform) style being in regulation of any kind.

We must also think about few others made, very early 'similar to Spanish' crown used by unspecified French maker (I have example in my collection with French pre 1838 silver hallmark) and another one with very 'Dutch' looking crown (as used on the Dutch Willem Order) with same - pre 1838 French hallmark. I am certain there are more out there.

Now, this 'crown type guide line' should only be applied to dating the Officer and Knight classes as higher grades were somewhat different and should be dealt with in another study. Otherwise it will confuse most collectors.

In the early types in lowere classes (which I consider to be all those made by Dutalis, Allard and Buls) - there are some differences in details - especially center disks wich can further allow us to date pieces with better precision.

Contact me for images if you like as this "one image under 80 Kb" per post is severely limiting and frustrating (to me).

Take care.

[farmer]

QUOTE(oli4vercammen @ Nov 18 2006, 17:45 ) ←

How it is made, the details of the craftmanship, etc...

I would even say the military one is made by Heremans and the civilian is made by Wolfers

Hello,

I would think the Military one is Buls's (see the criss-crossed pattern in swor'd hilt and the uncrowned lion) - hence of much earlier vintage. I certainly do agree to Civil being Wolfers's.

[farmer]

Here is my L1 collection case. Missing several things but who knows - in time some may show up.

[Tim B]

:speechless1: Well! What to say other than start posting some individual shots!

Very nice!

Tim