Organisational Badges Blood Order

[Craig]

I recently read a book about US troops after May 45 and their exploits in gathering "Booty". One of the examples was of a Corporal who found in the cellar of NSDAP headquarters numerous item s of Hitlers personal property including is " Blood Order" Is this a medal or award?

[Nick]

The Blutorden or Ehrenzeichen vom 9. November 1923 was originally instituted shortly after Hitler came to power and awarded to those members of the party who actively participated in the putsch attempt of 1923. In May 1938 in recognition of special merit in the battle to unify Germany, other party members who were not originally eligable under the first regulations, now qualified and were issued the Blood Order.

These medals are pretty rare, especially the first issue medals and they demand high premiums.

Here is a link to a picture:

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=1829

[Raz]

obverse view of a 2nd pattern blood order, struck in 800 silver and

serial numbered to reverse.

[deptfordboy]

Hi All,

Blood orders have particularly interested me due to the fact they can be linked with a person and/or important political event (the Putsch). I understand that there were 2 issues, and that the number/recipient index for the first issue has been found.

I was looking on a well-known dealer's site where a 2nd issue blood order was listed. The dealer argued that, 'when' the index for the 2nd issue is found, prices will rocket. That got me thinking as to the likelihood of this happening - do the learned gents here know where the 1st issue list was found, and what might be a likely source for discovery of the 2nd? Is this a realistic expectation, or just snappy salesmanship?

Thanks

Gilbert

[isonzo]

Hello,

may I show you a ?blood order group?, which is really complete. In my opinion means ?complete? that the 3 main parts are existing:

- the blood order

- the large map with the document

- the certification

Only if all these 3 parts are existing you really can say that the order has a ?personality?, because as you know the ?blood order? itself only has the number, the document only the name. But the little red certification has the name and the number written down.

So many dealers very often have an offer missing the certification, but saying that the order (for example with the document) has definitely a provenience which is able to be proofed. I think that this is only a ?nice story? to push up the price, because it is without the certification never ?stone rocked? that the documents or other parts belonged really to the owner of the blood order so it is impossible to proof. For example I know definitely from some offers in the last years that single parts have been put together and were offered as so called ?ensembles?.

I am interested in the blood order thematic for many years and I only have four times seen a really complete set. In my opinion is a complete set extremely rare.

Do you know any other ?real sets??

Best

isonzo

[isonzo]

certification and number

[Guest Rick Research]

It is precisely groups like that with 2nd range numbers shown which will, over long and patient years, allow the blanks to be filled in.

ONLY the first issues were (mainly, with several conspicuous exceptions) for the actual Beer Hall Putsch. The majority of later issues were, in my opinion, severely devalued by issue to post-1933/pre-1938 Austrian Nazis (and there was a significant difference in being a Dollfuss killer in 1934 with Nazi Germany alive and flourishing next door, and being a 1923 Nazi) and other people who had ZERO to do with the events of 8/9 November 1923. Another decoration would have been far more appropriate-- certainly from a design point of view.

I've just had a collecting friend tell me about a second issue type Blood Order in the 27XX range that--combined with other known numbers from existing groups, pretty solidly, in my opinion, fills in ALL the numbers for that particular bestowal date, at least. They were issued then (no idea about other late issues, but they always came in large numbers at one time) as they are shown in the list, numerically by the way the names are listed.

[Bill Dienna]

Only if all these 3 parts are existing you really can say that the order has a ?personality?, because as you know the ?blood order? itself only has the number, the document only the name. But the little red certification has the name and the number written down.

I would have to disagree. I owned a cased first pattern example with the recipient's gold party badge. I was able to determine his name from the awards list. From that I learned that he had taken part in the Putsch as a member of the Stosstrup Adolf Hitler. I obtained his SA file from the National Archives. Then I located his son in Germany. I visited him and learned a great deal about his father. The son also gave me his medal bar, the Mother Cross awarded to his mother, a Christmas card from Goebels, copies of letters, and on and on.

As to whether a list exists or might ever be found for the serial numbers of the recipients of the second pattern....anything is possible. It might well be buried within the unidentified documents from WW II that are in the National Archives or the German archives. Or it might have been destroyed or lost with other NSDAP materials during the war.

There was a special "Office of 9 November 1923" that kept the records, responded to requests from Blood Order holders, and so on. I don't know where this office was located, but I have always presumed it was in Munich. that city was captured by the Americans and its files, if they sirvived, might well have been shipped back to the States; or simply ignored as unimportant, since they didn't relate to scientific developments, war crimes, and similiar topics.

One final interesting note: The son of my Blood Order recipient told me about how the American troops took items from their apartment in 1945, including uniforms, a stamp collection, and other items. I learned that this fellows SA tunic, complete with the "Stosstrup Adolf Hitler" cuff title, had turned up several years ago in the hands of a veteran who called in response to a newspaper classified ad. The tunic was purchased, and was re-sold at the MAX show. What was interesting was this: the tunic, at the time that it was purchased from the veteran, HAD a Blood Order on the pocket. BUT this one was unnumbered! So it seems that holders of the Order could aquire additional examples for other uniforms. Or maybe it was just because this fellow was a deputy Gauleiter, and knew who to call to get a spare!

[Jacques]

von Heydebreck. he is wearing the Blood order ribbon on his panzer wrap.

jacques

[Guest Rick Research]

FANTASTIC photo Jacques! Wear of this peculiar, awkward award was always difficult on tunics without chest pockets for "normal" wear-- hence the constant official complaints about nonregulation ribbon bar wear.

This is the first "correct" one I have seen for a Panzer tunic!

[Great Dane]

I know this thread is almost 1 year old, but I just came across this photo and felt it belonged here.

It shows AH wearing the Blood Order, which - at least I believe - is not often seen (but then again, I'm not a TR collector so I might be mistaken...)

/Mike

Edited December 4, 2006 by Great Dane

[Paul R]

This is the first time I have ever seen the blood order on a LW tunic... much less a HG wrapper! Awesome photo!

Mike,

Thanks for bringing this topic back to the top! Your photo is the only one I have ever seen of Hitler displaying his Blood Order. Thanks for sharing it with us! Do you know the circumstances of this photo?

[Great Dane]

I'm afraid I can't really add anything to the photo. I can't even tell when it was taken although I have a feeling it is a pre-war photo (mid-late 1930s perhaps?). But it's only speculation...

(I found the photo on the internet, so I can't tell if anything is written on the back)

/Mike

[Guest Darrell]

I know this thread is almost 1 year old, but I just came across this photo and felt it belonged here.

It shows AH wearing the Blood Order, which - at least I believe - is not often seen (but then again, I'm not a TR collector so I might be mistaken...)

/Mike

Mike ... outstanding picture !!! I can never remember seeing Hitler wearing this award either !!!

[Nick]

I am sure I have seen a photo of him wearing it in Munich at a Putsch Commemorative Ceremony ?

[Scott]

He wore it often in the early brown-shirt days. I think he put it away when he became Chancellor.

Scott

[MattGibbs]

Wear of this peculiar, awkward award was always difficult on tunics without chest pockets for "normal" wear-- hence the constant official complaints about nonregulation ribbon bar wear. This is the first "correct" one I have seen for a Panzer tunic!

Can you outline what you mean by the constant official complaints about non regulation wear, or even maybe give me a pic of examples of this? Just wondering what you mean becasue the regs I have seen clearly state the specially folded ribbon for the pocket button to wear properly?

many thanks Rick!

Matt Gibbs

[Nick]

Matt

I think Rick was refering to the ribbon being worn on a ribbon bar on tunics without breast pockets. As opposed to the correct wear as seen on the Panzer Tunic photo.

[Guest Rick Research]

Klaus Patzwall's "Der Blutorden der NSDAP" cites Wehrmacht and Police regulations from 1935 into the war repeating correct methods of wear over and over and explicitly forbidding non-regulation forms of wear.

Here's a new scan of my Luftwaffe Fliegerbluse Naughty Ribbon Bar with a Blood Order contrary to all regulations:

Note that this cheap recipient had this mounted up probably in 1939 on his old fashioned steel backed with struck brass "C" catch and brass pin ribbon bar, adding an extension for his circa early 1940 (when most were handed out) Westwall Medal and then pinned his EK 2 Spange through the existing Luftwaffe badge cloth backing. This indicates that the ribbon bar for this unknown reserve officer or NCO was actually worn for probably at least a year, pre-war 1939 to mid or late 1940.

The difference between this quite unauthorized 15mm Blood Order ribbon and a 1939 EK2 or Austrian Anschluss Medal is obvious:

This width ribbon was apparently made for some sort of equally unauthorized civilian lapel bow type wear.

This ribbon is quite commonly found on fraudulent ribbon bars, though I have yet to encounter a single example of the fake ribbon where the white stripe does not glow bright electric blue under a blacklight, unlike an original like the above. The frauds are most commonly seen festooned with a cast miniature Feldherrnhalle device, copied from some original and (you guessed it) ALSO never authorized device worn as a non-regulation lapel bow enhnacement. But I have seen several ORIGINAL period STRUCK Feldherrnhalle devices on the ORIGINAL 15mm ribbon-- one mounted onto a stickpin as if worn in a tie!!! But 99.99999999% seen will be fakes, easily determined by a black light and the cast device. Fakes will often be festooned with such other immediate tip offs as double SS runes and other over the top Hollywood exotica.

Contrast that sort of thing with the combination of the nameless civil servant/reservist above!

[JoeW]

I thought I would bring this to the top to add my two cents. The Besitzrukunde is not necessary to properly associate the unnamed medal with the unnumbered Urkunde. I linked my second issue BO with the Urkunde that was sold with it on a Hermann Historica auction some years ago by locating the named recipient's party information card in the archives. That was marked indicating a BO was issued and the number. Bingo.

And Rick, your deprecating comments as to the worthiness of all the "Dollfuss killer" Austrians and non-Putsch Germans who received the second issue BO should be tempered by the fact that some of those Austrians put everything on the line to advance that cause, however diseased its philosophy was. Not all of the first 1500 were fired upon by the Munich authorties were they? Some were left guarding the senior government officials taken prisoner or holding a strategic point, while Hitler lead the rest to the destiny.

Some of the "unworthy" Austrians who received the second issue BO lost everthing and were forced to flee their homeland. The recipient of the second issue BO in my collection, Hans Dobek, was with the group that assaulted the Chancellor's office. While some participants were hanged, Dobek was sentenced to life in prison. Hitler negotiated with Schussnig the release of these men before the Anschluss. I think their efforts were just as worthy of the Blood Order as those of the 1500 who weren't fired upon. Perhaps they were equal in sacrifice to those before the Feldherrnhalle.

Wasn't the above photo of Hitler wearing his BO taken during the internment ceremonies at the Ehrentempel on the Koenigsplatz?

Edited February 16, 2007 by JoeW

[DanCz]

Very well put Joe - - a point that is often overlooked when discussing the "value" or "merit" of a Blood Order. Although I prize my First Issue B O highly - - - I would very much like a Second Issue too - - - sadly I do not have the necessary finance needed to purchase one !!

[Bill Dienna]

The only times that I am aware of Hitler wearing the Blood Order were on those occassions when he wore the brown shirt for ceremonies, specifically, the annual commemoration of the Putsch and the annual Reichsparteitag.

[Butch]

The Collar Tabs on the Panzer Wrapper look light colored to me. Was this for the Herman Goring Division? Just a guess from me. I'd like to hear some opinions. Thanks Guys, Butch

[Erich S]

This is a good topic and I think what Joe W wrote in an earlier post is spot on regarding the 2nd pattern BO. If you look at some of the highest awards given out such as the Gold Party Badge it was originally meant for the oldest veterans of the party and later expanded by Hitler as an honor award. The TK Ring was the same as it was only given to only the earlist SS Officers and later expanded by Himmler to include all officers who met certain critera. Hitler and Himmler both used their highest awards for their own means and I feel that it does not make them inferior to the first ones given out in my opinion.

[Erich S]

To go along with what JoeW wrote regarding how some were not near the action who earned the first pattern BO was Jakob Grimminger who stood guard at a bridge a few miles away from the Feldherrnhalle. I think both patterns were important in the history of the NSDAP. Anyone else like to add their opinions?