Lippe-Detmold

[Riley1965]

The more I see of these BEAUTIES the more I want to start collecting them...as if I don't have enough ODM interests and collections

Doc

[Solomon]

Indeed very nice and rare beauties

@Gaffken

Do you know, who awarded your Leopold-Order with crown?

There are only 6 awards of this model (1909-1910)

Here is my Leopold-Order...the only one in my collection...

Silver merit-medal of the Leopold-Order with original ribbon

[Solomon]

...and the fitting document...(I already showed it)

[Gaffken]

Solomon--excellent merit medal! And with the Urkunde, too--a rare combination.

Unfortunately, my Leo Order didn't come with any provenance, so I don't think I'll ever know which of the 6 it belonged to.

Would you (or anyone else) happen to have the names of the six in question? I'd nevertheless be interested to see who the contenders might be, as well as their ranks, just for fun...

Regrets,

Gaffken

[Guest Rick Research]

I have the complete rolls for Lippe-Detmold, but am not familiar with types and design changes***.

Reading the statutes with the rolls, "2nd Class" of the Order is "with Crown" in 1909 and 1910 and there were:

#5 on the running roll of this class

Heinrich Maass, Maler, born Anklam im Pommern 24.12.1860, living in Berlin, decorated 14 January 1909

#6 Robert Graf von Rhoden, Hofchef Sr Hoheit des Landgrafen Chlodwig von Hessen, Kammerherr Sr Majest?t des Kaisers und K?nigs, born Cleve, Regierunsbezirk D?sseldorf 17.12.1866, living in Herleshausen Kreis Eschwege, decorated 20 November 1909

#7 Max Freiherr Dathe von Burgk, K?nigl. S?chs. Kammerherr, born Rossthal bei Dresden 23 June 1853, living in Schloss Sch?nfeld bei Grossenhain, decorated 6 December 1909

#8 Paul Seydel, Oberstleutnant beim Stabe des 2. Th?ringischen Inf. Regts. Nr. 32, born Berlin 20 August 1857, living in Meiningen, decorated 3 January 1910

#9 Curt Heyl, Rittmeister und Fl?geladjutant Sr. Hoheit des Herzogs von Sachsen-Meiningen, born Berlin 4 December 1870, living in Meiningen, also decorated 3 January 1910

#10 Alfred Cramer, Major beim Stabe des Inf. Regts Nr. 15, born Stettin (Pommern) 24 April 1863, living in Minden i. W., decorated 20 February 1910

#11 Hans von Dewall, Major und F?rstl. Fl?geladjutant, born Minden i.W. 14.12.1866, living in Detmold, decorated 2 May 1910

which makes 7 for 1909-10. More is available for the military recipients from wartime sources. None of these are listed as dead on the rolls, which seem to make such notations (perhaps only when awards were returned) into the 1920s.

***From the statutes in the rolls, this pinback-with-crown was created by changes in the Order 29 February 1908-- but there were no awards of the grade in 1908. It was abolished and changed again by the Statutes of 30 May 1910 which made the arms enamelled "violet" rather than white-- THAT is the type WC has posted.

29 of the "violets" but 3 returned on recipients' deaths noted.

[JensF.]

A lot of Lippe on one bar:

[Guest Rick Research]

I don't remember that forwarding letter for the Silver Medal of the Leopold Order-- if you didn't look him up already on the roll, August M?ller was "F?rstl. Wagenmeister" resident in Detmold, born in Hee?en 6 November 1860. Actual award Lfd. Nr. 97 on 30 May 1910. (Bet he had other awards as a Hoflakei!)

This was mine once, sigh:

[attachmentid=60697]

Not the best condition, but a splendid non-combatant group with the 1897 Regent's medal. And yes, this is an ORIGINAL "flat bottom" of the type now rendered so instantly dubious by the mass production fraudsters.

[Solomon]

I don't remember that forwarding letter for the Silver Medal of the Leopold Order-- if you didn't look him up already on the roll, August M?ller was "F?rstl. Wagenmeister" resident in Detmold, born in Hee?en 6 November 1860. Actual award Lfd. Nr. 97 on 30 May 1910. (Bet he had other awards as a Hoflakei!)

Hello Rick,

I looked him up already, but I forgot to copy his signed receipt.

I remember that he listed in 1910 no other awards...

Nice medalbar...I allready told you, that I would never sell such a beautiful and rare bar

Here is a nice (blanc) document f?r the war merit cross Lippe-Detmold for NC ("am wei?en Bande").

I just found it in my collection, I buyed it with another document and I thought it was for combatants, which I already have two times...

I reorganized my documents and I found it between the awards docs for combatants

Greetings

Solomon

[Gaffken]

Rick--great info--many thanks, as always, for your efforts.

In reference to your listing for the second class cross under the 'second model' (OEK 1155), I was initially under the impression that I had the pinback from the first model (OEK 1146), which was awarded from 1908-09. In a photo in one of the older OEKs that I have, #1145 appears to be a direct match to WC's award in response #18 & 19 in this thread, so I simply assumed I had the pinback from the same series, which has similar features (silver arms, enameled center with rose).

Consequently, I was under the impression that the second model had enameled arms with a rose in the middle, while WC's piece came from the 3rd model, which has enameled arms too, but also has the swallow and star in the middle instead of the rose (??)

Would anyone be able to set me straight on this?

Apologies in advance for the confusion,

Gaffken

[Guest Rick Research]

I don't have images of all those innumerable pre-war decoarations, hence my vaguesness. The illustration #1145 in the "Deutschland Katalog 1800-1945" was the second class M1906-08 AND the 2nd Class M1908-10. The 1st Class M1906-08 simply had a crown on top of that BUT--

The 24 July 1906 Statutes refer to a SILVER cross, "L"s between the arms, enamelled rose, with and without crown but both classes on a ribbon.

The 29 February 1908 states that the Order grade with Crown is worn "without ribbon in the middle of the left breast" and the grade without Crown on a ribbon. It adds a silver Merit Cross without enamel and Silver and Bronze Medals. Regulations specify precedence for this new Leopold cross and new Leopold medals being worn mingled with the Crosses of the Honor Cross and the Merit Medals, though nowhere is it stated how and where the ORDER is to have place.

The 30 May 1910 statutes add a Leopold Grand Cross and Gold Medal, changing the Order to "violet" enamel arms, and specifying Grand Cross as 1st Class, Leopold Order with Crown as 2nd, and without crown as 3rd class. (The rolls pages are headed 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Classes and consecutively numbered from first to final awards entered by date.) This states their precedence is to be "the same as our House Order" which really doesn't help at all, does it, when BOTH were held. This change also specifies return of a lower grade on award of a subsequent higher one.

On 27 March 1913 a crown was added to the silver merit cross for "higher distinction," and this is when the rather weird regulation that the ribbon of the Leopold Order's classes was never to be worn without the actual decoration came in.

The last design change came on 30 May 1916 when the centers were altered for the Order grades only, since the changes refer to alterations of the enamelled centers and those only existed in the Order grades.

With these 4 sets of foundation decrees, nowhere at any time was there ever any mention whatsoever of what the Leopold awards were to be granted FOR, nor of what criteria would assign any specific grade to recipients!!!

On the roll pages, "1st Class" is written as "Grossehrenkreuz" in the comments, and go from 1910-1918. "2nd Class" is written (for all) as "mit Krone" and go from 1907 to 1918. The "3rd Class" pages say "ohne Krone" from 1906 on. Apparently the top of page "Class" designations was added AFTER the individual awards started.

From this, while the roll pages continue listing "1st class," "2nd Class" and "3rd class" awards chronologically, the designs were very different indeed before and after the 1908 and 1910 regulation changes, though the Running Numbers continued onward without making any note of those changes. All we have to go by are the dates of the design changes to determine what those classes looked like.

None were exchanged for new versions, which must have made things messy with all types being worn simultaneously! A M1906 1st Class would have looked more like a M1913 Merit Cross with Crown than the neck-chained 1st Class M1910!!!!

[Solomon]

Would anyone be able to set me straight on this?

Apologies in advance for the confusion,

Gaffken

Hello Gaffken,

your Leopold-Order (pinback-cross) is the 1st model (OEK 1146), which was awarded between

January, 14th. 1909 and February, 20th 1910.

It replaced the Leopold-Order with the crown at the ribbon, which was awarded from May, 30th 1907 till August, 27th 1907 (4 awards).

The 2nd model (with enamaled violet arms) of the Leopold-Order with the crown (also a pinback-cross) was

awarded between June, 2nd 1910 and February, 15th 1916 (12 awards).

The 3th model (with enamaled arms and a bird in the center instead of the rose) of the Leopold-Order with the crown

was awarded between July, 3th 1915 and November, 11th 1918 18 times...

The statutes were changed 4 times...quite confusing....

Greetings

Solomon

[Guest Rick Research]

So I counted the right ones then.

Graf von Rhoden died in 1915, but there is no entry that his Leopold was returned. Maybe with so few and the designs outdated, nobody wanted these back for reissue when they could never be used again.

Seydel retired as char. Generalleutnant and died in 1945.

Heyl retired as a Major aD, last wartime command shown as Baden Dragoon Regiment 21. Alive in 1926.

Cramer was mortally wounded 13 September 1914 as a Major in Inf Rgt 15, only dying in Minden on 11 November 1915. Again, no notation of his death or return of the Order.

von Dewall retired as a Reichsheer Generalmajor aD and died 6.8.23. There are notations on returns in the 1920s, but no such notation for him.

I could find nothing more on Maass or Baron Dathe.

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

A bar with some Lippe.

[Guest Rick Research]

WC-- Did George ever put a name to that one?

It's probably not going to be possible to ID it from just the two Verdienst medals, though perhaps clues like whether one or both is post-1905, die maker name on front or not might help. Might even get lucky on the random bit of pre-war -Meiningen rolls with that Ernestine Medal and be able to ID him from that trio.

Any excuse to take a break from TYPING Weimar rolls. Any at all. The rolls are fine, but I hate the typing.

[Solomon]

Gentlemen,

A bar with some Lippe.

And a very nice one, too

Is there a military merit medal between the two medals???

Is it missing?

Greetings

Solomon

[Wild Card]

Hi Rick,

Although George did see this group (I did not get it from him), he never took a shot at identifying it. As near as I can tell, the second class medal is a first (1888 - 1905) coinage with the ?Weigand F.? die maker mark while the first class medal is a second (1905 -1918) coinage, without the die maker mark, although the ring does have a hallmark which I can not identify.

Now stop this goofing off - get back to work!

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[Wild Card]

... the ring does have a hallmark which I can not identify.

[Wild Card]

Solomon!

Darn, why did you have to ask this question? This is not going to be easy. Yes, this bar does appear to have (at least) the ribbon of the military merit medal with swords attached between the two merit medals.

Of course this does not make sense. Why is it placed between the two merit medals and why is there no military merit medal present? As a matter of fact, the ribbon for the military merit medal is not even mounted in a way that would allow for a medal. This ribbon is deliberately mounted where it is in the manner which we see. So what is it?

As I understand it, this is the way the additional award of the swords to the merit medal is signified. While Nimmergut and Schwark both refer to such an award, as near as I can figure it, their description does not exactly match this arrangement.

Eric Ludvigsen saw this and immediately recognized it - Lippe was one of his favorite areas of interest. Unfortunately, I did not take any notes on his analysis. Another lesson learned.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[Gaffken]

Rick, Solomon--many (belated) thanks for your earlier responses; I think, in part, some of the confusion over the pinback stemmed from the OEK itself, which listed the dates of '1908-1909', when in fact they should have been a year further on. Another shortcoming of the limited references I have on hand.

Although it looks impossible to determine who mine would have belonged to, I think my next step will be to see if I can track down some photos of either of the five gents that Rick mentioned--I think it would be interesting to see the cross in wear, at the very least!

Cheers,

Gaffken

[Guest Rick Research]

Hm, not sure WHEN in 1905 the switchover occurred with "medals on hand" still available to be handed out, but that leaves 108 Golds 1905 to 1918 to be compared with 289 silvers up to 1905...

maybe I'll just wait until I have the "spare time" to transcribe and alphabetize ALL the Lippe-Detmold awards.

I found TWO golds "with Swords on the ribbon"-- both in 1908 for Southwest Africa. There were six silvers "MXaB" 1906-07 also for Southwest Africa. None during the world war for either.

[Solomon]

Solomon!

Darn, why did you have to ask this question?

Why is it placed between the two merit medals and why is there no military merit medal present? As a matter of fact, the ribbon for the military merit medal is not even mounted in a way that would allow for a medal. This ribbon is deliberately mounted where it is in the manner which we see. So what is it?

I asked, because I?m nearly an expert of the military merit medal

There is a simple explanation:

The military merit medal (MVM) is mounted in a absolut correct way!

? 3 of the statutes says:

The MVM has to be mounted before the silver merit medal...the place at the bar is correct!

The missing medal is also simply explained:

After the owner awarded the war merit cross, he had to give the MVM back!

This point is almost unknown, even the "Marschallamt Lippe" didn?t know it for sure and wrote some letters

to the "Milit?rkabinett Lippe".

I saw all the files dealing with that, and I have copies, which prove it.

Please look at my scan...

The swords on the ribbon are a symbol for a war-time award...it?s none of the 4 awards, which came with

"silver swords on the ribbon"...the 4 persons were all colonial fighters.

Greetings

Solomon

Edited November 15, 2006 by Solomon

[Guest Rick Research]

That's interesting!!!

I diverted from Weimar again (I don't HAVE anything from Weimar... it's not as if I had Bavarian or navy rolls to find something "interesting" for myself) and typed up a quick alphabetized list of the Gold Verdienst Medal recipients 1905-18 and started checking them against Silver Medals...

and of course, being at least the AGE to be a very junior enlisted man during the war with frontline status.

Half done and it seems hopeless, so "back burner" time. Most such recipients were born in the 1830s-50s and clearly were NOT WW1 Frontk?mpfer. But there are a few in their late 40s-50s Hoflakai and Gendarm types who could be possible... and no way to tell from their status and occupation listed on the Rolls.

[Wild Card]

Thank you Solomon!!!!!

As I hope I indicated before, I was not completely sure - ?As I understand it...? & ?...as I can figure it? - of my explanation and I was counting on someone, namely you, to clarify this situation; and you did a great job.

Again, thank you,

Wild Card

PS. Rick, you?ve got to stop this ?diverting?.

[Solomon]

Again, something nice...which I?ve new.

Leopold-Order bronze merit medal (335 awards).

It?s a early one, made by Carl B?sch, Hannover (the ribbon is new, I have to replace it...)

Now I?m searching for the golden medal...

Greetings

Solomon

[Solomon]

Now here is a new rose in my collection...

It?s the Golden Honor-Cross of the House Order Lippe-Detmold.

It?s a late one, made by Zimmermann in 1918 (massive silver, painted golden).

This cross was awarded 107 times...

Greetings

Solomon