Bundesrepublik The new "Iron Cross"

[Alex K]

post deleted due to duplication

Edited March 6, 2013 by Alex K

[azyeoman]

Recently saw this pair.  Despite what everyone is saying, I think it looks attractive.

[Iron Cross Diamonds]

If the Iron Cross was brought back, here is how I would create it:

Iron Cross 2nd class with 5 grades:  1) basic  2) Oak Leaves, 3) Swords, 4) Diamonds, and 5) Golden Diamonds.

Iron Cross 1st class same thing as the Iron Cross 2nc class.

The reasons are:

1) Some of the imperial German states had swords, oak leaves and crowns to designate their higher grades of their awards so why not do it with the Iron Cross.

2) When you look at German military history, once the enlisted men/NCO had won the Iron Cross 1st and 2nd classes, there were no more awards available to them unless they were commissioned as officers.  Very few of the enlisted/NCOs won the Knight Cross and German Cross in Gold and only 7 army NCOs had won the Oak Leaves.  None of them won the Diamonds, the Swords or the Blue Max.  One NCO fighter pilot had won the Swords; however, he was given it after being killed in action.

I don't know why the Germans did not adopt the various items that were worn by the British, French, and Americans to signified additional awards fo the medal they won.  The British had rosettes, French silver and bronze stars, bronzes and silver palm leaves, Americans, bronze and silver oak leave clusters, silver and gold stars.

 

 

[Iron Cross Diamonds]

If the French can still use their Colonial Medal which has been re-named to the Overseas Medal plus re-instituting the Croix de guerre des théâtres d'opérations extérieurs which was discontinued after the Korean War, the Indochina War, and the 1956 War, plus still using the Cross for Military Valour (which was created to recognizes bravery during the Algerian War 1954-1962) then I don't see why the Germans can not bring back the Iron Cross.

[Iron Cross Diamonds]

You also have the Russians bringing back many of their old civilian/military medals that were abolished after the Communists had come to power, plus some of their Communist medals have been kept; however, the red ribbon for those medals have been replaced by the white, blue, red ribbon of the today Russian flag and have been renamed.  I am sure that many of those people who were conquered by the Russians (the Poles, the Baltic States, the various states in Asia, the Caucasus countries, etc.) still have collective bad memories of what those Tsarist Russian medals represent.  Finally, you don't see the Polish government getting rid of all the Communist Polish medals that were created. 

Edited November 14, 2016 by Iron Cross Diamonds
add some additional wording

[Iron Cross Diamonds]

After World War II, the Italians kept some of their royalist medals; however, they had to rename them since the monarchy was abolished in the late 40s.  The Austrians have kept a Trapezoid   form of ribbon when they pin the medal on your chest plus still using the modified Austrian eagle on their medals plus awarding certain medals in three different grades:  bronze, silver, and gold.  

Edited November 14, 2016 by Iron Cross Diamonds
punctuation errors.

[Iron Cross Diamonds]

You also have the Russians bringing back many of their old civilian/military medals that were abolished after the Communists had come to power, plus some of their Communist medals have been kept; however, the red ribbon for those medals have been replaced by the white, blue, red ribbon of the today Russian flag and have been renamed.  I am sure that many of those people who were conquered by the Russians (the Poles, the Baltic States, the various states in Asia, the Caucasus countries, etc.) still have collective bad memories of what those Russian medals represent.  After World War II, the Italians kept some of their medals; however, they had to rename. them since the monarchy was abolished in the late 40s.  The Austrians have kept a trifold form of ribbon when they pin the medal on your chest plus still using the modified Austrian eagle on their medals plus awarding certain medals in three different grades:  bronze, silver, and gold.  Finally, you don't see the Polish government getting rid of all the Communist Polish medals that were created. 

[Egorka]

On 11/13/2016 at 17:53, Iron Cross Diamonds said:

5) Golden Diamonds.

Golden diamonds!? That is rich! What for? For street credit?

 

[Iron Cross Diamonds]

Well, the Germans had the Golden Oakleaves with Diamonds to the Knight Cross so I figure it might as well be added to the Iron Cross since Hans Rudel was awarded the Golden Oakleaves with Diamonds.   Here is an Order of the Red Eagle medal with Golden Oakleaves.

 

Just a thought. 

I agreed with some of the reviewers on this website that the Germans need to have more imagination when it comes to having more different colors for their ribbons.  Even the East Germans had more imagination when creating different color ribbons for their decorations.

 

Edited November 16, 2016 by Iron Cross Diamonds
More information

[Iron Cross Diamonds]

"Quite apart from matters of political correctness, the Iron Cross can only be awarded when the nation is in a declared state of war. It is what is known as a temporary award, and has to be re-instituted each time the nation is at war."

You look at the wars fought by France and the UK, many of their wars were not declared when they were expanding their empires or putting down armed uprisings in their colonies; whereby, their soldiers, civilians, and police officers were given VCs, the DCMs, Order of the Bath, Order of the British Empire, the CMG, the French Legion of Honor, the French Military Medal, the French Croix De Guerre Overseas medal, and various colonial police medals.  When the Napoleonic Wars had finally ended, I am surprised the British didn't demand that the French abolish the Legion of Honor since it represents the amount of death and destruction that Europe suffered from those wars.  The only people who like and support Napoleon were the Poles because he supported the Poles in their fight for their independence.

 

[Jock Auld]

14 hours ago, Iron Cross Diamonds said:

"Quite apart from matters of political correctness, the Iron Cross can only be awarded when the nation is in a declared state of war. It is what is known as a temporary award, and has to be re-instituted each time the nation is at war."

You look at the wars fought by France and the UK, many of their wars were not declared when they were expanding their empires or putting down armed uprisings in their colonies; whereby, their soldiers, civilians, and police officers were given VCs, the DCMs, Order of the Bath, Order of the British Empire, the CMG, the French Legion of Honor, the French Military Medal, the French Croix De Guerre Overseas medal, and various colonial police medals.  When the Napoleonic Wars had finally ended, I am surprised the British didn't demand that the French abolish the Legion of Honor since it represents the amount of death and destruction that Europe suffered from those wars.  The only people who like and support Napoleon were the Poles because he supported the Poles in their fight for their independence.

 

Quoting your quote Germany is at war as they have soldiers stationed in Afghan and in mortal peril.  They have just extended that mission and only last week suffered fatalities from a suicide bomber?  Not to metion the fact that their leader has invited thousands of enemy fighters to Germany as refugees?  Pretty sure soon all of EU will be reeling when these folk coordinate their efforts, not just this 'loan wolf' rubbish we are currently expeiriencing.  Interesting times we are living in.

[Gordon Craig]

Jock & Iron Cross Diamonds,

The BW soldiers are in harms way and there is no doubt of that.  But  a state of war does not exist between Germany their foes in Afghanistan.  There was a lot of push in Germany to bring back the Iron Cross for Afghanistan but that was ruled out because no state of war existed.  They didn't even have a bravery medal and that is where the push came for the return of the Iron Cross. But "Political Correctness" still exists in Germany so no Iron Cross for bravery.  What doesn't make sense to me is that the Luftwaffe can use the Iron Cross as their insignia on their aircraft and that is quite all right.  I will never understand politicians!

Regards,

Gordon

 

[Jock Auld]

41 minutes ago, Gordon Craig said:

Jock & Iron Cross Diamonds,

The BW soldiers are in harms way and there is no doubt of that.  But  a state of war does not exist between Germany their foes in Afghanistan.  There was a lot of push in Germany to bring back the Iron Cross for Afghanistan but that was ruled out because no state of war existed.  They didn't even have a bravery medal and that is where the push came for the return of the Iron Cross. But "Political Correctness" still exists in Germany so no Iron Cross for bravery.  What doesn't make sense to me is that the Luftwaffe can use the Iron Cross as their insignia on their aircraft and that is quite all right.  I will never understand politicians!

Regards,

Gordon

 

The cross is on the side of vehicles too now and then.  Tell the dead guys families that Germany is not at war, just saying is all! PS I am on Diamonds side I, I am not sure who he quoted?  For the lads and lasses at the front it certainly will feel like a war.

[Hugh]

I'd say the USA is the champion at undeclared wars:  Korea, Vietnam and probably a dozen since then.  But at least we give the soldiers their hard-earned medals.  

 

Now the proliferation of campaign and other awards is another subject :-(

 

Hugh

[Iron Cross Diamonds]

Jock Auld.  I was quoting from Gordon Williamson, May 18, 2009, which is on page 1 of this topic.  Since the end of World War II, countries are no longer declaring a state of war in public and over the airwaves anymore.  

You look at American history, there were no declarations of a state of war by the American government against the various Native Americans or when America was having its Banana Wars in Central America during the 1920s and 1930s.

 

Edited November 17, 2016 by Iron Cross Diamonds

[Chris Boonzaier]

6 hours ago, Jock Auld said:

The cross is on the side of vehicles too now and then.  Tell the dead guys families that Germany is not at war, just saying is all! PS I am on Diamonds side I, I am not sure who he quoted?  For the lads and lasses at the front it certainly will feel like a war.

Germany has in the past used other awards for smaller wars. The Iron Cross has always been used for wars fought to save Germany very existence.

Colonial Wars, The Boxer Rebellion, 2nd Schleswig War, Austro-Prussian war, .... all took part after the institution of the Iron Cross, but in each case the Iron Cross was not awarded and other state awards were given.

Of course the soldiers did brave acts, butther Iron Cross was not the only award availible for bravery.

Reinstituting the Iron Cross is a romantic idea, but based on emotion and does not respect the historical precedents.

On 11/13/2016 at 17:53, Iron Cross Diamonds said:

2) When you look at German military history, once the enlisted men/NCO had won the Iron Cross 1st and 2nd classes, there were no more awards available to them unless they were commissioned as officers. 

Which era are we talking about? Pre 1918 there were many other awards availible. In WW2 there were also more than just the Iron Cross ?

[Iron Cross Diamonds]

Which era are we talking about? Pre 1918 there were many other awards availible. In WW2 there were also more than just the Iron Cross ?

I am talking about both World War I and World War II with regards to officers particularly high ranking ones being award with the higher grades of the Knights Cross and the higher grade awards of the imperial German medals like the Order of the Red Eagle. In the imperial German state awards, there was usually only one grade for the enlisted men/NCOs while the higher grades were reserved for the officers.  In World War II, as I have commented earlier, only 7 NCOs had won the Knight Cross with Oakleaves and no enlisted men/NCOs had won the Sword and/the Diamonds.  Most of the Swords and Diamonds were won by the generals.  

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi, in WW1 there was the Prussian Golden Merit Cross, and although not awarded to German soldiers in WW1 the Preussische Kriegerverdienstmedaille and the MEZ were also alternatives.

In WW2 the military could reward soldiers with plenty of awards, assault badges, close combat badges, tank destruction badges etc. etc...

Outside of the Prussian system in WW1 there was no shortage of awards, Bavarian, Saxon etc. etc... the only soldiers who came up short were the poor prussians.

But when all is said and done, none of the arguments show any need for reinstating the Iron Cross, Simply that germany needed  medals for her new role in the world, and that they have done... and with a classless set of new awards.