EK 1939 Knights Cross Original?

[TheKnight]

Could anyone help me. I bought this medal from a guy whos grandfather left him a collection of german medals and badges. His grand father fought in World war 2 for the russian army and left the collection too his father who subsequently passed it down again. There are no papers or documents with it and id like to know wheter it is fake or original or get the name of an organisation that will value and certify its originality on paper. Any help or opinions on the medal will be appreciated.

[TheKnight]

Here is a picture of the back of the medal with stamps 800 on medal and loop

[Harrier]

This cross is not very old and is one of a "recent" crop of fakes which came on the scene in the last few years. It is believed to originate in Eastern Europe and is called a "Latvian fake" (which may or may not be accurate). The beading appears to be the product of a CAD or laser-cutting system and the ring appears to be separately attached to the frame.

[Harrier]

P.S. The ribbon is incorrect as well.

Edited May 23, 2009 by Harrier

[Danny70]

Hello TheKnight,

I'm no expert, but IMO this cross looks like the 'Latvian Fake' RK. Sorry.

Regards - Danny

Edit: I see Harrier has confirmed it as I was typing!

Edited May 23, 2009 by Danny70

[Naxos]

Like Harrier and Danny70 already stated, it is a modern fake.

Sorry

[Alex K]

Agreed unfortunately a "Latvian" fake

[TheKnight]

Agreed unfortunately a "Latvian" fake

Thanks for your help guys even though it is not the news i wanted to hear. I assume there is no point in getting a physical inspection of the cross done by a valuer. You seem pretty sure its a fake.

I looked through the gallery of Knights crosses i saw that that you can see more of the suspension loop then on the others however there is quite a variation in the loops on the ones in the gallery.

With regards to the machining of the medal i wouldnt have a very keen eye and so have to take your word for it been a fake.

Can i ask are ye all 100% that its a fake or have ye any doubt

Sorry for seeming desperate but i dont wnat to make accusations about it with the seeler until im sure.

Thanks again

[Bill Garvy]

Another for comparison. . .

[Bill Garvy]

Reverse. . .

[TheKnight]

Reverse. . .

Is that original Bill, The loop seems very similar and i still cant see a difference in beading

[Paul R]

I would like to buy a high detail fake, like this one(being sold as such). What are they being sold for?

[Harrier]

These crosses appeared for the first time not many years ago. Here is one brief discussion touching on them on another Forum: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/sho...ht=latvian+fake

One of the many problems with them is that the suspension ring, which is an integral part of a Knights Cross frame when it is die-struck, is separately attached to this cross, although an effort has been made to make it look like it is part of the frame. These crosses are available with multiple markings from Juncker, S&L, etc., etc.. Close study of the beading will also show that it is remarkably regular. Although real crosses also have what appears to be regular beading, on close examination you can see the small irregularities which are characteristic of a human touch in the preparation of the master die. On this cross, it is apparent that a machine created the master die for the frame, not a human.

[TheKnight]

I would like to buy a high detail fake, like this one(being sold as such). What are they being sold for?

http://www.treasurebunker.com/acatalog/rep.html#a1066

They are not dear, follow this link and you will get one for 100 pounds +

However this particular one cost me a great deal more as i was convinced it was real.

If you want to spend alot of money i would be happy to sell on this medal, just kidding

[TheKnight]

These crosses appeared for the first time not many years ago. Here is one brief discussion touching on them on another Forum: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/sho...ht=latvian+fake

One of the many problems with them is that the suspension ring, which is an integral part of a Knights Cross frame when it is die-struck, is separately attached to this cross, although an effort has been made to make it look like it is part of the frame. These crosses are available with multiple markings from Juncker, S&L, etc., etc.. Close study of the beading will also show that it is remarkably regular. Although real crosses also have what appears to be regular beading, on close examination you can see the small irregularities which are characteristic of a human touch in the preparation of the master die. On this cross, it is apparent that a machine created the master die for the frame, not a human.

Thanks Harrier

Could tou tell me is the cross posted on this thread by bill garvy original. The suspension loop looks different to alot of the one in the knights cross gallery. Are all the other crosses in the knights cross gallery original.

[Paul R]

Thank you for the link. I am sorry to hear that you have been deceived. Is there any way you can get your money back from the seller?

[Harrier]

I think the cross posted by Bill is another example of this same type cross, just aged a bit more.

[TheKnight]

Thank you for the link. I am sorry to hear that you have been deceived. Is there any way you can get your money back from the seller?

I dont know ill have to try. If he genuinely thought it was real he might take it back Its a long shot.

You live and learn

[Harrier]

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_05_2009/post-2778-1243266363.jpgThe cross initially posted was meant to look similar to this Zimmermann/Godet cross.

[TheKnight]

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_05_2009/post-2778-1243266363.jpgThe cross initially posted was meant to look similar to this Zimmermann/Godet cross.

I can see imperfections and hatching on the beading at the centre of that cross

Is that how you can be sure mine is a fake - because there is no flaws.

Would i be right in saying all crosses knights and EKs would have some evidence of being handmade and suspension loops are part of the casting of the frame of the cross?

[Harrier]

In original Knights Crosses, the frames are die-struck with the suspension ring being a part of the frame. The dies were prepared by a master engraver and, under magnification, the stamped frames exhibit very, very small flaws which do not appear when a piece has been created by a machine or computer assisted design program.

I urge you to intensively study Knights Crosses if you intend to buy one. You should obtain the books written by Gordon Williamson, Dietrich Maerz, Vern Bowen and others, and should also read the numerous forum discussions regarding these pieces.

[PKeating]

There were not many firms authorised to supply the Knight's Cross: C E Juncker, Godet/Zimmermann, Otto Schickle, Steinhauer & Lück, Klein & Quenzer and Deschler & Sohn. One or two other firms might have produced a few crosses for retail purposes before the LDO clamped down in March 1941. Zimmermann and Godet crosses are identical and very rare so by simple deduction, we can be quite certain that the dies were held by Zimmermann because of Godet's involvement in supplying high quality restrikes of wartime decorations to bent dealers in the 1960s and 1970s. The Klein & Quenzer dies seem to have been used since 1945, like Steinhauer & Lück's dies.

Anyway, that aside, your cross is certainly a fairly recent attempt at replicating the Zimmermann/Godet type. Rather than expend countless words, let's cut to the quick by saying that if you have a Knight's Cross whose die-struck characteristics do not conform precisely to those of known originals by authorised manufacturers of the period, it is extremely unlikely that your cross was produced before 8.5.1945. So-called "Schinkle Form" and half-ring types are known to have been made and worn during the war, along with a couple of other variations visible in undoctored period photo portraits, but these are really the preserve of advanced students and collectors. If you're in the market for a genuine Knight's Cross, as you seem to be, you ought to equip yourself with Gordon Williamson's book for a start. You ought also to try to make the acquaintance of honest dealers - which is not easy - and collectors who might allow you to examine genuine crosses as there is really no substitute for this sort of education.

Attached is a snapshot of a cross supplied as a retail piece by C F Zimmermann. The suspension ring is of the classic Imperial-style ovaloid form preferred by this firm and bears the LDO code "L/52" for this firm. Compare this cross to the cross you have shown here. Examine the beading. You will find many differences, indicating that yours was not produced on the dies used by C F Zimmermann.

Hope this helps.

PK

Edited September 16, 2009 by PKeating

[TheKnight]

Thanks for your help PK

I have alot to learn about this award. I have decided not to rush into getting one. I have seen alot of them on different sites for sale ranging from 4000 euro to 12500 euro. I have no idea why there would be such a variation in price and until i know why i would not be confident enough to buy any of them. However i will keep looking.