Konteradmiral Jantzen

[slava1stclass]

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic with the little "It's always good to check with an attorney as they are able to differentiate clearly for all of us the difference between "moral" and "legal"...." remark, but it sounds like you are.

How about this for a little "bid rigging" exercise? You and me and Ricky and Wild Card and Paul and Claudio and whoever wants to bid on some things from Thies all agree to form a bidding enterprise. We call it, for want of a better word, "Bob". We each contribute money to Bob and decide among ourselves what Bob is going to bid on, and how to allocate what Bob wins among the members of Bob. Maybe we don't have enough money among ourselves to ensure Bob is fully capitalized, so we sell shares in Bob. Bob isn't a conspiracy. Bob is a company. And Bob competes with any other Tom, Dick or Harry that wants to bid in Thies' auctions as well.

There nothing illegal about this, and what exactly is immoral about it?

To all:

From one Jesuit-educated person to another, the logic of the argument is pure. They sure tained us well.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Edited November 20, 2006 by slava1stclass

[Wild Card]

Hi Dave,

Thank you for explaining the legal vs. moral aspects of the situation; it certainly clarified the situation to me. I must also say that I thought that Stogieman?s response echoed mine and I can assure you that I bore no sarcasm - only gratitude. Aside from our interest in collecting and research, we all bring something unique to the table, be it knowledge, experience or something else; and I for one am most appreciative of your legal experience and your willingness to share it.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

Edited November 20, 2006 by Wild Card

[Paul C]

Gentlemen, I have tried to refrain from adding my 2 cents here, but I just can't. All people in this discussion have valid points. If I have added to the problem I again apologize. I would like to retun to the purpose of this forum which is to share information and knowledge. Too often, and I am as guilty as anyone, we let our passion get the best of us. I need to remember that this is a hobby. While I enjoy collecting and researching I also value the friends that I have made in the hobby. I need to not lose track of this and remember that this hobby is fun! Last year when I went to Germany I purchased a few medal bars and visited a few people. When I tell people about my trip to Germany I forget to talk about the medals because it was more important to talk about running around Berlin and Potsdam with Daniel and meeting the brother of a U-Boot officer whos dagger I have. How could I replace the enjoyment of meeting a re-enactor dressed like Frederick the Great and having my picture taken with him. This to me is the enjoyment of the hobby. This hobby should be fun. When it becomes a pain in the butt then I am done.

[Steve K.]

There is nothing wrong with discussions about what people will or will not bid on!

This is NOT collusion (in the criminal sense) if neither party OWNS the items up for auction or has a relationship with the auctioneer!

[Claudio]

Hi Stogieman!

I am sorry too... I was taken away a bit from your generalized comment on collectors labeled as being hypocritical. That's why I was so mad. Forget my comments... it's very sad to a have a mud fight among us collectors. We should unite and not fight each other... although hypothetically every collector is a potential competitor.

I don't think that we need to defend the auctioneers... they already make enough money and, in the past I bought so many fakes.... what about that is that not criminal???

I think Thies is honest and his auctions are the best (and most expensive, also commission fees are quite high) on the market for Imperial stuff, because he has the right connections all over the world. But it's just his way to earn money. So I don't think he cares much about splitting groups, like all other auctioneers or dealers... tell me one name in this business that never split a group!

Ciao,

Claudio

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

@ Brian: Do you know what it would be better for me? It would be much better that today's governments would invest more in preserving history and put everything in a museum for public display. In that case I wouldn't have to spend thousand of Euros to put together groups and could use the money to go on vacation to Brasil, Cuba or Thailand and have a good time.

This is a utopical thought of mine and, especially in Germany (but also in Switzerland), no authorities would care to invest money and time in such museums. Most the historical items are kept away in archives, especially Imperial German and 3rd Reich items, for the reasons we all know.

Good for you Claudio! There are some collectors like yourself, Dave Danner, Rick and Rick, Ralph and many others who collect not only the enamel but also the HISTORY. For that I think it's great. And yes, you forego personal pleasures for the sake of your hobby, you are ABSOLUTLEY ENTITLED to show a piece or bar with PRIDE. No problems here.

I am speaking entirely about the need I have to get my grandfather's history out there with the pieces. He lived a great life, fought a great fight and now I want nothing for myself but to pass on this 'interesting life' he led. Certainly mine is not so interesting. Fighting jealous wanks on other forums who are jealous and out only to discredit me is not exactly fun for me either. Not a good fight!

But for you Claudio, I wish you the best and look forward to the piece finding its way to your door and others who appreciate the history and keep the life led to earn those awards alive.

Edited November 22, 2006 by Brian von Etzel

[Claudio]

Hi Brian,

I find great that you're able to share your family's story. I would be also very proud of such ancestors. I do only have few family members who participated to different wars; the maternal grand father joined the Foreign Legion (Civil war in Indochine after WWII) and another distant swiss relative and double national who fought against the Japanese in WWII for the USA. Fortunately enough Switzerland didn't have to fight for its indipendence but I am sure that we would have put up a fierce fight in both world wars. All males in my family did their bit and served in the army.

Any piece I acquire, especially medal bars that comes with a name, is filed on my computer with all the data. In case one day I am forced to sell my bars, the new owner will get the bar with the data on it.

Ciao,

Claudio

[Claudio]

Finally... I could re-unite Jantzen's ribbon bar with its big brother... it wasn't unexpensive, though!

Ciao,

Claudio

[Claudio]

Back... with label... that is quite typical: Grabow & Matthes used to make a lot of ribbon & medal bars for KM Officers.

Claudio

[Deruelle]

Great news Claudio. Congrats for your patience to reunite such groups

If only all of us we ould have your chance

Christophe

[Guest Rick Research]

Long overdue-- congratulations! :cheers:

[webr55]

Great job, Claudio! I know those reunifications are painful!

[Claudio]

yeah... I agree a pain in my virgin a$$ and it is also not good for my poor wallet... but the feeling that you have doing something good, I mean historically and militarly speaking, is not payable... I still have a lot of fun doing it.

Ciao,

Claudio

[Claudius]

Kudos indeed. I'm glad you could re-unite those elements. I'm sure they will look great together!

As for the price you had to pay. Don't blame me, I wasn't bidding against you. I was off chasing roses...

[Christian J]

As for the price you had to pay. Don't blame me, I wasn't bidding against you. I was off chasing roses...

Would that be of the Lippe kind?

[Claudius]

;)