Portuguese Victory Medals

[johnnymac]

JM,

On the medal in question; when actually reviewing the piece in my hand the small star is not so shiny as it appears in your picture and has lost some of the silver finish.

Again it would be good if this discussion could be moved to the main vic thread as it contributes to that subject. Any thoughts??

Rob

Hi Rob,

My main goal was to fast track it, hopefully get a Portuguese medal collector's feed back. But I see your point and I will post my next illustration to WWI Victory Medal of the World. Then there will be two places were I might get the answerer to my question.

Rob - since we all are at times working off a photo we do not get to see all the details of that piece. But don't you see any relationship to the French stars shape andsize? I do realize that most of theEuropean Official Victory medals have a back ground with either France or Czechoslovakia and I found that the relationship is also in the unofficial types.

In surfing the web I have discovered that the Portuguese medals pre 1900's and post 1920 used a oversized attachment in the center of their buckle and the device was color matched to the a attachment (Bronze tobronze, silver to silver ect). This information is from posting and photos in 2006, from the OMSA forum.

(JM)

[johnnymac]

To All

I matched the two Vic's ribbons for scaling. Also in the color photo you see that the buckles are the same size.

In measuring all four cross arms (top, bottom and bothsides) of the two buckled I have, all are 3mm. The inside open area of the buckle where the device would be placed, itsmeasured at 6mm.

The original "star" in the color photo shows that its left and right top cross arms do not come close to the bottom of the buckle's cross arm, like it is shown in Laslo's photo. Knowing that the open area inside the buckle is 6mm, I would guess that the colored star is 6mm, andnot 3mm. Of course this is mostly guess work not having the medal in the color photo.

Laslo writes that the silver star is 3mm. Using his photo it can be seen that his star covers all of the middle opening (6mm) plus the top cross bar of the buckle (3mm) which put at 8-9mm. So the 3mm in his book must be a misprint.

In surfing the webb for the information on my posting I have come across at least 30 photos of Portuguese medals, some pre 1900 and some post 1920. What I found interesting was that the center devices were large and sat on top of the buckle. My thoughts only - To me, the large device is a way to prevent the buckle from slipping down the ribbon.

It is also written by Laslo that the buckle may have served as a way to secure the ribbon over a metal hanging suspension, then why have buckles in bronze, silver and gold. To me it is clearly an award since there are to many Portuguese medals with out a buckle. Plus I add this about the buckle - on the all items that had a buckle, that I have handled, one end had to be secured to the buckle. Last, there is just not enough room to double fold both sides of the ribbon through the blackstrap.

(JM)

I super-imposed a star in my photo posting just for scaling.

Edited February 18, 2013 by IrishGunner

[johnnymac]

Hi Rob,

My main goal was to fast track it, hopefully get a Portuguese medal collector's feed back. But I see your point and I will post my next illustration to WWI Victory Medal of the World. Then there will be two places were I might get the answerer to my question.

Rob - since we all are at times working off a photo we do not get to see all the details of that piece. But don't you see any relationship to the French stars shape andsize? I do realize that most of theEuropean Official Victory medals have a back ground with either France or Czechoslovakia and I found that the relationship is also in the unofficial types.

In surfing the web I have discovered that the Portuguese medals pre 1900's and post 1920 used a oversized attachment in the center of their buckle and the device was color matched to the a attachment (Bronze tobronze, silver to silver ect). This information is from posting and photos in 2006, from the OMSA forum.

(JM)

To all interested persons, but request I have moved thisposting to "WWI Victory Medals of the World" - Page 27, posting #536

[Tim B]

Hi JM,

Well, I don't know but I think we need to look into it a bit more before making conclusions. The US made stars (talking the small campaign/service stars for subsequent awards) are 3/16", or approximately 4mm in size. The larger stars (decorations) are 5/16" and noticeably larger.

I believe, the correct silver star that was supposed to be used for the Portuguese Victory Medal is small in nature and IMO, probably closer to the 4mm size based on past examples I have seen PIC's of. The larger stars are just too big. So, perhaps Laslo got it correct afterall, or his measurements were off, ever-so-slightly.

So, in my opinion, the star should sit inside the buckle and not on top of it. Perhaps the tips are touching the inside edges and it may be a case of manufacturer differences, but I think some of those larger stars you showed earlier are out of place and probably added by someone after the fact, for whatever reasons. My vote is for the smaller star and until I see some verifyable source stating otherwise, the small silver star is the only authorized attachment beside the common buckle we see on many Portuguese awards.

I want to add in closing, that we see various examples throughout the European countries where servicemen have taken "artistic license" in adding unauthorized or non-regulation type attachments. Sometimes it's larger stars, gilted medals, or regimental insignia. So, who knows at this point. However, per regulations, only the small silver star is called out in the references as far as I see.

Regards,

Tim

Here's just a few case in point: :cheers:

[johnnymac]

Hi JM,

Well, I don't know but I think we need to look into it a bit more before making conclusions. The US made stars (talking the small campaign/service stars for subsequent awards) are 3/16", or approximately 4mm in size. The larger stars (decorations) are 5/16" and noticeably larger.

I believe, the correct silver star that was supposed to be used for the Portuguese Victory Medal is small in nature and IMO, probably closer to the 4mm size based on past examples I have seen PIC's of. The larger stars are just too big. So, perhaps Laslo got it correct afterall, or his measurements were off, ever-so-slightly.

So, in my opinion, the star should sit inside the buckle and not on top of it. Perhaps the tips are touching the inside edges and it may be a case of manufacturer differences, but I think some of those larger stars you showed earlier are out of place and probably added by someone after the fact, for whatever reasons. My vote is for the smaller star and until I see some verifyable source stating otherwise, the small silver star is the only authorized attachment beside the common buckle we see on many Portuguese awards.

I want to add in closing, that we see various examples throughout the European countries where servicemen have taken "artistic license" in adding unauthorized or non-regulation type attachments. Sometimes it's larger stars, gilted medals, or regimental insignia. So, who knows at this point. However, per regulations, only the small silver star is called out in the references as far as I see.

Regards,

Tim

Here's just a few case in point:

Tim

After enlarging Lasko's photo and seeing that the top point of his five pointed star completely covers the buckle's top cross bar which is around 3mm. Laslo's star which he illustrated is much larger then 3mm. The open area inside the buckle is 6mm+. Was there a misprint of a 3 when it should have been an 8, I do not know?

But in my illustration you see that there are 10 threads in the middle section of the buckle, it take's 4 threads to equal 3mm. I placed a star which is 3mm on the top cross bar of the buckle. See how much smaller it is than the star in Laslo's illustration?

Having said that, I agree, what we need is more information, more documentation and a good Portuguese medal collector.

(JM)

Edited December 23, 2010 by johnnymac

[johnnymac]

Tim

After enlarging Lasko's photo and seeing that the top point of his five pointed star completely covers the buckle's top cross bar which is around 3mm. Laslo's star which he illustrated is much larger then 3mm. The open area inside the buckle is 6mm+. Was there a misprint of a 3 when it should have been an 8, I do not know?

But in my illustration you see that there are 10 threads in the middle section of the buckle, it take's 4 threads to equal 3mm. I placed a star which is 3mm on the top cross bar of the buckle. See how much smaller it is than the star in Laslo's illustration?

Having said that, I agree, what we need is more information, more documentation and a good Portuguese medal collector.

(JM)

(JM)

[RobW]

Tim

After enlarging Lasko's photo and seeing that the top point of his five pointed star completely covers the buckle's top cross bar which is around 3mm. Laslo's star which he illustrated is much larger then 3mm. The open area inside the buckle is 6mm+. Was there a misprint of a 3 when it should have been an 8, I do not know?

But in my illustration you see that there are 10 threads in the middle section of the buckle, it take's 4 threads to equal 3mm. I placed a star which is 3mm on the top cross bar of the buckle. See how much smaller it is than the star in Laslo's illustration?

Having said that, I agree, what we need is more information, more documentation and a good Portuguese medal collector.

(JM)

Hello JM,

It is mentioned in the second edition of Mr Laslos book that 'this five-pointed star has a radius of 3mm'...

Radius is defined as:

1. a straight line extending from the centre of a circle or sphere to the circumference or surface;

2. a right line drawn or extending from the center of a circle to the periphery;

3. a straight line from the centre to the perimeter of a circle (or from the center to the surface of a sphere);

or in this case the centre to the outer edge of the star.

Sources:

1. The Macquarie Dictionary, 2nd Ed 1991

2. New Oxford American Dictionary, 2nd Ed 2005

2. The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48

3. WordNet ® 2.0

4. www.dict.org

That would be measured from the centre of the star to the outside edge of the points. A total of 6mm would be derived from an edge to edge measurement at its widest points. This of course doesn't take into account minor manufacturing differences. I believe that would be more consistent than a 3mm star.

Regards,

Rob

Edited December 24, 2010 by RobW

[johnnymac]

Hello JM,

It is mentioned in the second edition of Mr Laslos book that 'this five-pointed star has a radius of 3mm'...

Radius is defined as:

1. a straight line extending from the centre of a circle or sphere to the circumference or surface;

2. a right line drawn or extending from the center of a circle to the periphery;

3. a straight line from the centre to the perimeter of a circle (or from the center to the surface of a sphere);

or in this case the centre to the outer edge of the star.

Sources:

1. The Macquarie Dictionary, 2nd Ed 1991

2. New Oxford American Dictionary, 2nd Ed 2005

2. The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48

3. WordNet ® 2.0

4. www.dict.org

That would be measured from the centre of the star to the outside edge of the points. A total of 6mm would be derived from an edge to edge measurement at its widest points. This of course doesn't take into account minor manufacturing differences. I believe that would be more consistent than a 3mm star.

Regards,

Rob

Hello Rob

Regards, JM

[johnnymac]

Hello Rob

Regards, JM

To All

Can someone post a large and clear side by side illustrationof both the obverse and reverse sides to show the different between the Italian"Official type 1" and the Italian "Reissue type 1" sincethey both are by the same manufacturer but at different time period.

Thanks JM

[lambert]

Gentlemen.

Last year I got this miniature of the Medal of Victory of Portugual.

that you would like avaliasem the authenticity of this medal.

lambert

[Herman]

My Portuguese VM.

It has a funny story that goes with it, although when it happened a few years back i was quiet mad.

When the medal arrived in the mail, my mailbox then was a post slot in the front door of the house, the dog got hold of it and teared the envelope in pieces. The ribbon of the VM was damaged. After the first wave of shock and anger I decided to keep it as it is. The dog is no more and now it's a nice momento to her.

It is an official type 2 with bronze ribbonholder.

Edited May 19, 2011 by Herman

[lambert]

I received an interesting email a few days on the vic Portuguese.

This e-mail sent by Mr. José de Quintanilla Mantas - Museologist .

Account that there is another 'original' Victory Medal Portuguese:

The medal of the sculptor João da Silva was signed by him. This medal was the target of a lot of discussion, because João was in Paris and the contest was not respected.

Therefore, a first issue came out, thousands of medals unsigned and unofficial, and later, João da Silva called for the issue of his medal he had won the contest. The Interior Ministry, after some debate, accepted the situation and there was the issue of the medal, with signature.

This is the photo he sent me

You can see the Signature of 7:00 and year in Roman numerals MDCCCCXX

Lambert

[johnnymac]

Lambert,

Great photo, but why is the obervse and the reverse suspension shown in your photo as being two different types for the same medal?

Jim M.

[lambert]

Good morning Rob & JM

This news is really very interesting, and it changes our understanding of Vic Portugal. I think that after 91 years comes this new series on the MV.

Of course, there was probably never a great interest in researching the Vic in its own country (Portugal), among others.

Maybe then we will have more information about other medals (Brazil, Siam, Romania and Cuba), I think with little information.

Lambert

[lambert]

Lambert,

Great photo, but why is the obervse and the reverse suspension shown in your photo as being two different types for the same medal?

Jim M.

M Yes.

Only this photo.

I was wrong to say that it was "only" a few days .. I received this email in August 2011.

but only now remembered to comment on the matter .. I'm sorry.

The photo shows a Reverse Vic Portugal, already known (unsigned)

Obverse a Vic Portugal "Official" signed.

Two are unfortunately not sent another picture.

Lambert

[Bilco]

Hi Lambert,

Thanks for posting the photo of João da Silva's original design for the Portuguese vic. It seems that there is always something new to learn about these Interallied medals!

Bill

[lambert]

Here, some of the Biography of the Author of Portuguese Medal.

João da Silva was born in Lisbon on 1 December 1880.

After attending the Industrial School Príncipe Real, in which he enrolled in 1893, he travelled to Paris where he studied at the School of Fine Arts. At this school, he received the first prizes in the subjects of Medals, Sculpture, Applied Art and Drawing, and in just two years he completed the Medal Course with the sculpture and medal maker Jules Chaplain (1839-1909). For his exam, he submitted a bronze plaque – "Les funérailles d’ Atala" -, executed in the workshops of the Mint of Paris.

After completing his artistic training, he worked as an engraver at the Fleuret House. In 1900, he submitted two pieces for the Universal Exhibition of Paris.

At the end of the following year, he moved to Geneva. In this city, he attended the Jeweller-Engraving course at the School of Fine Arts. To obtain a certificate, he produced a carved plate in silver - "A toilette de Diana"-, which now belongs to the Museum of Fine Arts of Geneva.

When he returned to Portugal, he resumed his activity as a sculptor, goldsmith and medal maker, and between 1911 and 1914 he taught Applied Art, Jewellery and Drawing at the Marquês de Pombal School.

He participated and was awarded many prizes in numerous exhibitions in Portugal and abroad. He received a 3rd place medal in the 5th Exhibition of the National Society of Fine Arts in 1905, and a second class medal at a show in that same institution in 1917. He won the 1st prize ex-aequo with René Lalique (1860-1945) in the Exhibition of Rio de Janeiro (1908), an honourable mention at the Paris Salon in 1908 and an honourable mention and gold medal at the Lisbon Salon in 1911.

Among his vast sculpture works, some are quite noteworthy: the Bust of the Republic, carved for the Constituent Assembly and inaugurated in the Parliament in 1911 (later, this bust disappeared), several monuments to the dead of the First World War (Évora – 1933 and Valença do Minho - 1951, for example), and the monument in memory of the children who died in the 1914-1918 war, produced one year after it ended and intended for the French municipality of Pouliguen.

João da Silva also produced the monuments in honour of Augusto Gil (1935) for the city of Guarda, and of the Baron of Rio Branco, for Rio de Janeiro, the "Fons Vitae" for the Luso Thermal Waters and the "Fonte da Juventude" for the Portuguese Pavilion in the Seville Exhibition in 1929. He was also the author of the silver epitaph dedicated to General Don José Henrique Varela Iglésias, in the cemetery of Toledo, the silver quill and inkstand offered to Afonso Costa, the "Floreira duas Pátrias" offered to the Brazilian President, Hermes da Fonseca, when he visited Portugal in 1912, and the sculpture representing the winner of the prize "A mais bela mulher de França" [The most beautiful woman in France], established by the French newspaper "Le Monde".

For the city of Porto he produced two emblematic works: the monument to Júlio Dinis, commissioned by the Faculty of Medicine in 1923 and inaugurated in 1926 (through public subscription), and the monument in memory of the students of the University of Porto who died in the 1914-1918 war, composed by a female figure covered with a veil and holding a palm leaf, is known as "The Saint" or "The Wisdom". Its inauguration took place on 16 October 1948 in the entrance hall of the building which houses the University of Porto, in Gomes Teixeira Square, dated 16 October 1948.

As a medal maker, João da Silva produced memorable works, such as the first gold coin of the Republic, in 1916, and the medal for the commemoration of the 1st centenary of the birth of Silva Porto, in 1950, commissioned by the Guild of Industrial Jewellers of the North of Portugal.

João da Silva was elected member of the National Academy of Fine Arts in 1933 and was distinguished with the "Soares dos Reis" Award by the National Secretariat of Information (SNI) in 1949, which he declined.

In 1952, he donated to the National Society of Fine Arts his house-workshop (now House-Museum Master João da Silva) built in 1938 by Ligier/Peige, following his guidelines.

He died in 1960 and was buried in Prazeres Cemetery, in Lisbon.

[lambert]

Hi All

While I was looking for more information about the MV Portugal, found another type of signed Medal, from the same manufacturer Portuguese (da Costa) manufactured between 20/30, is a reproduction of the Kind signed by João da Silva (taken as an officer).

I think this is a very hard Type (João da Silva) limited, and only in Portugal, so never appeared in Official catalogues, so very rare.

This type was offered me while repro sought the best-known Vic.

Repro Type "JS"

Detailed photos.

Edited February 9, 2012 by lambert

[lambert]

Notice the face of Victoria, deformed

No Portuguese Coat

Edited February 9, 2012 by lambert

[lambert]

I don't want to make this as absolute truth, unfortunately we need to rely only on what was reported by collectors.

I believe that is valid for the time being, but we should seek more information.

Regards

Lambert

[johnnymac]

Lambert Thanks for posting many good photos of this medals. But this medal is a fake that has been around for a long time maybe the 1960's

Regards, Jim

[lambert]

Hello Jim,

I didn't know the existence of this false Vic Portuguese (signed). Can I conclude then, that there is an Original version signed by author, and then copied.

This information were already known? There is this in the book of Mr. Laslo?

Regards

Lambert

[Bilco]

Hi Gents,

I was lucky enough to be able to buy this Type 2 Portugal vic from a fellow GMIC member - it's a classy medal.

Obverse:

Reverse:

And the close-ups:

Obverse:

Reverse:

Lambert - I tried your tip of scanning the medal, which worked well for the overall view, but wasn't of good enough quality for the close-ups. It might be that the ball suspension meant that they weren't quite in focus for enlargement.

Bill

[lambert]

Hello Bill,

I'm glad you get a Portuguese Vic is an example very good.

My model is already with me, other than yours, my owns the bar with 1 Silver Star. I will show you pictures soon.

lambert

[lambert]

Someone.

which the dimensions of Ribbon Portuguese? and the diameter of the coin?

Lambert