nzef1940 Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 (edited) Greetings all I posted this grouping over on another form (more ww2 based), one German fellow in particular was implying the swords on this award were fake and a later add on. I totally disagree and took detailed photos and also took the piece to a manufacturing Jeweller who advised the swords were die struck and integral to the piece and not soldered on. I accept it is not an awarded cross but a later private purchase. It has a tiny maltese cross stamped on the ring, the jeweller spotted this under a 20x magnification. He also gently cleaned the cross (see last image) as the sword handles had discoloured. It was cleaned via an electrical bath system that they use instead of abrassive mehtods. The grouping is an indirect vet purchase I would appreciate an opinion from members of this Forum. cheers Mike Edited February 4, 2011 by nzef1940
nzef1940 Posted February 4, 2011 Author Posted February 4, 2011 (edited) Final image, after clean. Edited February 4, 2011 by nzef1940
saschaw Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 Mike, I won't comment now and will wait, what others think about it. ;)
pinpon590 Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 (edited) Hi ! I'm not an expert, but I don't like theses swords. They don't look very fine. Please compare with an original model that I found on the web : You can see differences between yours (left) and the other model (right). Look especially the pommel, the handel and the hilt. Ant the left swords, I don't like the finish of the sword : Here are my first opinion, who is not very good. I will not buy this items if I had to choice.... We had to wait other members thinks, who are more competent than me. :cheers: Edited February 4, 2011 by pinpon590
nzef1940 Posted February 4, 2011 Author Posted February 4, 2011 (edited) Dont forget, I have said this is not an issued cross, bit a later private purchase example .Also I would like to hear from an expert in the field if possible.. How many firms made this cross? so why compare it to a single example? Common sense please. Edited February 4, 2011 by nzef1940
NavalMark Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 (edited) I have seen in some decades of collecting prussian orders & decorations only 4th classes with swords marked by Godet and Wagner. Wagner shall been the only official supplier of the GOK of RAO4 and KO4 with swords, Godet shall have only sold replacement pieces. The swords shown here are very close to those made by Godet, but they have not the quality. All original swords i have seen are die struck with very clear and sharp edges. These here look casted, often seen on upgraded crosses. Send the pictures to one of the honorable dealers and offer it for sale. You will be disapointed ............ And by the way - for what was this cross awarded ? No china, no southwest-africa, no colonial comemorative medal ? Interested, how you will explain this .... Regards Markus Edited February 4, 2011 by NavalMark
Paul C Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 And by the way - for what was this cross awarded ? No china, no southwest-africa, no colonial comemorative medal ? Interested, how you will explain this .... Regards Markus Totally agree.
Schießplatzmeister Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 Dont forget, I have said this is not an issued cross, bit a later private purchase example .Also I would like to hear from an expert in the field if possible.. How many firms made this cross? so why compare it to a single example? Common sense please. Hello: Common sense has been utilized. As stated by Markus, this piece does not conform to known originals by Wagner or Godet. It therefore falls into the "not an awarded piece" category. This therefore leaves open the possibility that it could have been made very recently or relatively long ago. It also leaves open the possibility that it was sold as a replacement piece to a recipient, or that it is a modern forgery meant to deceive collectors. Without more evidence, one cannot be certain. I have owned an identical piece to this one. The piece that I owned came from a old collection which contained original period pieces. The quality of workmanship of the piece was sub-standard compared to a Wagner piece. The asterisk marking on the ring leads me to believe that the piece is a 1920's or later copy and that it is possibly of Austrian manufacture. So, I belive the piece to not be modern, and that it was possibly made to be sold as a replacement (for an actual recipient). However, there is no way to be 100% certain of this. Copies made for the collector's market have been around for a long time. Best regards
Schießplatzmeister Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 Greetings all I posted this grouping over on another form (more ww2 based), one German fellow in particular was implying the swords on this award were fake and a later add on. I totally disagree and took detailed photos and also took the piece to a manufacturing Jeweller who advised the swords were die struck and integral to the piece and not soldered on. I accept it is not an awarded cross but a later private purchase. It has a tiny maltese cross stamped on the ring, the jeweller spotted this under a 20x magnification. He also gently cleaned the cross (see last image) as the sword handles had discoloured. It was cleaned via an electrical bath system that they use instead of abrassive mehtods. The grouping is an indirect vet purchase I would appreciate an opinion from members of this Forum. cheers Mike Hello again Mike: I must add that the swords on this piece appear to be cast and not die-struck (without direct inspection however there is no way to be 100% certain). These swords are definately NOT integral to the cross body. On original pieces, they were added to the cross body by the utilization of threaded screw posts. On this piece, they may be screwed in place, but this is unlikely. On the identical piece that I owned they were definately soldered into place. Best regards
nzef1940 Posted February 4, 2011 Author Posted February 4, 2011 (edited) Thanks, all I can say is what the Jeweller has told me after inspection, that it is not soldered on etc and part of the original medal, I dont know what else to say here? Also as stated this is an indirect vet purchase, NZ troops ended WW2 in Northern Italy (Trieste) Many crossed the border to Austria etc, I believe this is where the bar comes from. Anyway, interesting commenst, thanks. Hello again Mike: I must add that the swords on this piece appear to be cast and not die-struck (without direct inspection however there is no way to be 100% certain). These swords are definately NOT integral to the cross body. On original pieces, they were added to the cross body by the utilization of threaded screw posts. On this piece, they may be screwed in place, but this is unlikely. On the identical piece that I owned they were definately soldered into place. Best regards Edited February 4, 2011 by nzef1940
saschaw Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 Thanks guys, that's exactely what he's been told (by me and others) before on another forum... Thanks, all I can say is what the Jeweller has told me after inspection, that it is not soldered on etc and part of the original medal If the jeweller does not see from an in hand inspection what we see with some pictures, he should buy new glasses... This cross is not one piece regarding the cross body and swords, and if it were, it had even worse chances being old. And, as Markus said, the combination of awards is odd. What sense does a private purchased replacement cross make on a bar where it likely does not belong to?
army historian Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 I have seen in some decades of collecting prussian orders & decorations only 4th classes with swords marked by Godet and Wagner. Wagner shall been the only official supplier of the GOK of RAO4 and KO4 with swords, Godet shall have only sold replacement pieces. The swords shown here are very close to those made by Godet, but they have not the quality. All original swords i have seen are die struck with very clear and sharp edges. These here look casted, often seen on upgraded crosses. Send the pictures to one of the honorable dealers and offer it for sale. You will be disapointed ............ And by the way - for what was this cross awarded ? No china, no southwest-africa, no colonial comemorative medal ? Interested, how you will explain this .... Regards Markus Awards without a China, Southwest-Africa, or Colonial Commemorative medal were possible - Von Mueller (Emden) got the Red Eagle 4th with swords for an action against Chinese Artillery prior to WW1 (no other campaign medal). "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_von_M%C3%BCller" Von Müller was given command of the SMS Emden in the Spring of 1913. Soon he achieved fame and notoriety in both the German and other imperial powers' newspapers for initiative and skill in shelling rebellious forts along the Yangtze at Nanjing (or Nanking). He was awarded the Order of the Royal Crown Third Class with Swords. (I am not sure this is correct - I read Red Eagle 4th with swords). Cheers Captain Albert
NavalMark Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 The award to Müller was one of a few exceptions, thats correct. He already owned the KO3 and was too young in career to get the RAO3X, so he received "the swords to - die Schwerter zum" KO3. But i am shure his swords were very different .... Müller, Karl von 1891, 04.10. Pr. Centenarmedaille Unterleutnant zur See 1897, 03.22.S BLUECHER Müller, Karl von 1891, 04.10. Pr. RAO 4. Kl. Kapitänleutnant 1906, 09.19. Schlachtflotte, Admiralstabsoffizier Müller, Karl von 1891, 04.10. Russ. St.Annen-O. 3. Kl. Kapitänleutnant 1907, 09.17. KAISER WILHELM DER GROSSE, Artillerieoffizier Müller, Karl von 1891, 04.10. Pr. RAO 4. Kl., Krone z. Korvettenkapitän 1909, 06.08. Hochseeflotte, Admiralstabsoffizier Müller, Karl von 1891, 04.10. Sa.Kgr. Albrechts-O. Ritterkreuz 1. Kl. m. Krone Korvettenkapitän 1912, 06.13. Reichsmarineamt Müller, Karl von 1891, 04.10. Pr. Kronen-O. 3. Kl. Korvettenkapitän 1913, 03.01. Reichsmarineamt Müller, Karl von 1891, 04.10. Pr. Kronen-O. 3. Kl., Schwerter z. Korvettenkapitän 1913, 10.13. EMDEN, Kommandant Müller, Karl von 1891, 04.10. Pr. Dienstauszeichnungskreuz XXV Jahre Korvettenkapitän 1913, 11.15.R EMDEN, Kommandant Müller, Karl von 1891, 04.10. Chile, Verdienstorden 2. Kl. Fregattenkapitän 1914, 07.14. EMDEN, Kommandant Müller, Karl von 1891, 04.10. Pr. Eisernes Kreuz 1914 I. Kl. Fregattenkapitän 1918, 02.14.R EMDEN, Kommandant, in Holland interniert Müller, Karl von 1891, 04.10. Pr. Pour le Mérite Fregattenkapitän 1918, 03.19. EMDEN, Kommandant, in Holland interniert Regards Markus
nzef1940 Posted February 4, 2011 Author Posted February 4, 2011 (edited) Thank you for your intelligent, objective and well reasoned analysis, which is the reason I posted the group here. The previous forum had many comments that appeared to be quoted straight from textbooks, which I find boorish as nothing is black and white. And perhaps English not being a first language to some forum members can lead to a misunderstanding of subtle points. When the Jeweller said integral, he meant not added later or solderd etc etc, but I am not going to revisit that point. I see we have some of the same members of the other Forum present here, who appear to be a bit young? Perhaps wanting to be proven right all the time? Anyhow I am happy . At the end of the day the group was cheap as chips also Alll the best. Mike Hello again Mike: I must add that the swords on this piece appear to be cast and not die-struck (without direct inspection however there is no way to be 100% certain). These swords are definately NOT integral to the cross body. On original pieces, they were added to the cross body by the utilization of threaded screw posts. On this piece, they may be screwed in place, but this is unlikely. On the identical piece that I owned they were definately soldered into place. Best regards Edited February 4, 2011 by nzef1940
nzef1940 Posted February 4, 2011 Author Posted February 4, 2011 Good point, thanks. Awards without a China, Southwest-Africa, or Colonial Commemorative medal were possible - Von Mueller (Emden) got the Red Eagle 4th with swords for an action against Chinese Artillery prior to WW1 (no other campaign medal). "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_von_M%C3%BCller" Von Müller was given command of the SMS Emden in the Spring of 1913. Soon he achieved fame and notoriety in both the German and other imperial powers' newspapers for initiative and skill in shelling rebellious forts along the Yangtze at Nanjing (or Nanking). He was awarded the Order of the Royal Crown Third Class with Swords. (I am not sure this is correct - I read Red Eagle 4th with swords). Cheers Captain Albert
NavalMark Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 The last crown order 4th class with swords before WWI(including awards of swords to ...) was in 1911 for action in Ponape. Spiegel von und zu Peckelsheim, Edgar Frhr. 1903, 04.01. Pr. Kronen-O. 4. Kl. m. Schwertern Oberleutnant zur See 1911, 04.26. CORMORAN, Wachoffizier bis 23.12.10 Warning to all members: dont believe the story, that the KO4X shown above is an original, cross and swords were married some decades later. Collecting is not the same as religion, not a question of believing or not. Regards Markus
nzef1940 Posted February 4, 2011 Author Posted February 4, 2011 (edited) Do you realise how insulting that comment is? Warning to all members: dont believe the story, that the KO4X shown above is an original, cross and swords were married some decades later. Collecting is not the same as religion, not a question of believing or not. Regards Markus Edited February 4, 2011 by nzef1940
VtwinVince Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 As I said on the 'other forum', I don't care for the swords on this PKO4, but I do think it is an older piece, possibly a Spangenstueck. However, it does not belong on this bar, rather I think someone swapped out an HOHmS. I have a similar PKO4mS which has swords identical to the award pieces, but it is unmarked.
NavalMark Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 Yes, i know how insulting it is in your eyes, but every serious collector has to show up upgraded/faked items. It would be irresponsible to let someone "believe" this cross would be original in all parts. Funny coincidence, the prussian crown order 4th and 3rd class is at the moment the center piece of interest for comming publications at the german phaleristic society, and if have seen enough ...... If you come to Germany, we can meet in my cabinet and have a look through the microscope .... Or we can visit a church and believe. Regards Markus
saschaw Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 (edited) Do you realise how insulting that comment is? Please re-read your postings and ask you the same. As the youngest who commented here as there I feel offended by your highly ironical postings, and especialy about your thoughts on others age. It's not about age. It's about a disputable order an its owner who has to much faith in it. Here's the thread from WAF, for those who are interrested in it: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=489432 Edited February 4, 2011 by saschaw
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