Italian Victory Medals

[lambert]

Thanks Rob !

Lambert

[lambert]

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/57863-victory-medal-award-documents-in-general/page-3

continue following Italian Victory Medal.

Hi Lambert. I suppose that your comments #132-134 are translations from my site http://www.faleristica.it .

Type 2 and 3 medal are actually unofficial VIC. The difference from French ones is that they were never produced and distributed in significant numbers.

Two years ago there was a discussion in an Italian forum about the medal. Here is the link:

http://miles.forumcommunity.net/?t=44916321

In this topic, post #34, I wrote that the medal was sold for some 300 euros. Mistake. It was 400.

Pls consider that Fiodor181 is a very well known collector, may be one of the top experts about Italian medals

Hello Claudio.

I know your site. (very informative), my collection is 95% about the WWI and inter-allied medal, WWII and Brazil (the Brazilian Army has fought in Italy in 1944 -45, under the command of the 5th U.S. Army)

I had enough time to look for references on this medal unofficial. unfortunately only this forum Obtiva some reference.

I have no doubt that it existed, even if it was a very very small amount, in the book of Mr. Costantino Scarpa / Paolo Sézanne Unfortunately Mr. Laslo never knew of her existence.

That's what I think.

greeting

Lambert

Edited October 14, 2013 by lambert

[claudio2574]

Just to add some entropy...

Here is a "bronzo nemico" medal (type 2, Nelli) with the VIC ribbon. Not only the ribbon is wrong for this medal, it was sewed on the wrong side. However I believe it is original.

[IrishGunner]

Medaglia Della Vittoria Interalleata; Type 3 - F.M. Lorioli & Castelli - Milano ("large" signature); 36mm x 2mm

Replacement ribbon (Czech colors?)

[davidck]

The third type:

In front: the figure of a woman with wings, representing the victory before a shield resting on the ground and that she supports with her left hand, while with his right hand raised, holding a torch, a helmet at his feet.

On the reverse: a dove on the left, raised their wings, with an olive branch in its beak. At the top, in turn, is the motto of the large cavity. "War For Civilization" and horizontally, from top to bottom, divided by dove beneath the legend AI . COMBATTENTI . DELLE . NAZIONI / ALLEATE . ED . ASSOCIATE .. Associate and in-line below MCMXV MCMXVIII

(immagine Scarpa-Sézanne "Le decorazioni del Regno di Sardegna e del Regno d'Italia - Commemorative - vol.2" - Tav. 25)

Istituzione : 1920

Comments welcome.

Has anyone ever actually come across one of the walking/standing Italian versions? Laslo's book doesn't have much information on the origin of these, and am wondering what their backstories are.

[lambert]

Hello All

Again try to clarify the "obscure" "NOT OFFICIAL ITALIAN VICTORY MEDAL", in which A. Laslo never mentioned in his books. The intriguing that it has photos and information unauthorized medals, as I understand it, were never produced in significant amount .. would just examples for approval? why were they rejected?

Again I came across a photo, taken from the Book of Italian Medals. ("Le decorazioni del Regno di Sardegna and del Regno d'Italia - Commemorative - Vol II")

Here is a picture (unfortunately not of excellent quality) of one of the variants presented in the above table, apparently produced by the company Sacchini (the picture is taken from the volume of Dimitri Bini "Le medaglie ufficiali militari e civili del Regno d'Italia "

The time will tell

Lambert

Edited May 21, 2014 by lambert

[paul wood]

Lambert,

What a beautiful medal, shame it was never adopted.

Paul

[lambert]

Hello Paul

Yes it is true.

It's beautiful, they might have to continue manufacturing in private companies as in the case of the French Victory Medal , Type Charles and Pautot-Mattei.

Regards

Lambert

[davidck]

I believe I have a couple of rarities here: the Italian official type 4 and unofficial type 1. First, the official type 4:

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_06_2014/post-16545-0-02744100-1402947515.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_06_2014/post-16545-0-39195600-1402947591.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_06_2014/post-16545-0-39037600-1402947822.jpg

[davidck]

And the unofficial type 1. I haven't measured the diameter, but it is noticeably smaller than the other Italians in my collection, so I'm sure it is an unofficial type 1, rather than a reissue type 2.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_06_2014/post-16545-0-67688400-1402948019.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_06_2014/post-16545-0-43090000-1402948088.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_06_2014/post-16545-0-40466800-1402948171.jpg

[Bilco]

Hi David,

I think your identifications are correct. The Official type 4 you show seems to have been gilded. The Unofficial type 1 has a smaller figure of Victory, as well as being a smaller planchet.

Good buys.

Bill

[davidck]

What appears to be one of the rare Italian variants is on ebay right now. I contacted the seller who said that the date on the back is 1914, not 1915, leaving me no interest in bidding on this one. He also said he ships to the US, despite the listing saying only Italy, so I'm sure he'd ship to anyone on this board.

http://www.ebay.it/itm/261563185026

[lambert]

He has proof (photos) of the back of the unofficial medal type 5? I know it's "MCMXV" never seen another, if not in this way ..

Lambert

[davidck]

I don't have my book with me, so I don't remember which version is which, but he said it is 1914, NOT 1915. So it would be whichever version has no names inscribed on the obverse.

[lambert]

Hello David

Like this?

Lambert

Edited August 19, 2014 by lambert

[RobW]

Hi David,

I don't have my book with me, so I don't remember which version is which, but he said it is 1914, NOT 1915. So it would be whichever version has no names inscribed on the obverse.

There are two different varieties that have both no names on the obverse and the dates 1914 on the reverse. These are identified by Mr Laslo in his reference as:

* Official type 4.

* Unofficial type 1.

As Lambert has pointed out, in post #165, the illustration shows the 'Unofficial type 1'. Despite this variety being unofficial, both it and the official type 4 are seen much more rarely than the Johnson, Lorilo-Castelli or Sacchini varieties.

Regards,

Rob

[johnnymac]

David,

Although not listed or illustrated in Laslo book there are other Italian medals that I have listed in my book. Both are almost identical in their design as used on the obverse to the unofficial type-1. Both no name on obverse and on the reverse both are dated 1914. The key is the reverse side is where you can see the main difference from the unofficial type-1 Ask this seller for a reverse side photo and good luck if you are bidding.

If you have my book look on pages 220- 222 and 224.

Jim

Edited August 27, 2014 by johnnymac

[johnnymac]

This was posted on ebay so I posted it.

[johnnymac]

Sorry, I only posted half so here the full posting on ebay.

[davidck]

Is anyone aware of a Lorioli variant in which "Casteli" has only one L?

[RobW]

Hello David,

There are a number of minor variations in the naming area of the Lorioli-Castelli variety. Some of the name inscriptions are more truncated than others. While I have seen three distinct naming sub-varieties I have not seen such an example where the 'Castelli' only has one 'L'. I would suggest a close-up look at the inscription and you may indeed find the detail.

Regards,
Rob

Edited October 17, 2014 by RobW

[Bilco]

Hi Gents,

These two Italy vics are both by S Johnson. Are either of them the Reissue Type 1?

The left-hand one in the first two photos has a bright finish but looks 'scrubbed', as if someone has rubbed it with a toothbrush. The right-hand one is bright and I don't think it's been polished, as the inside of the staffa is just as bright as the rest of the planchet. There is a slight difference in colour, not obvious in the photos: the left-hand planchet has a reddish tint, while the right-hand one is brassy.

One of the characteristics of the Reissue Type 1 is the absence of dots between the words at the bottom of the reverse. The left-hand medal reverse has very small dots, not unlike my Official Type 2, while on the right-hand one the dots are larger and more easily visible.

Another characteristic of the Reissue Type 1 is a thinner planchet: in the photo below the medal positions are reversed; the one on the right looks thinner than the left one (despite my poor photo)

So, the left-hand medal in the first two photos seems to show more of the characteristics of the Reissue Type 1, but the right-hand one has a bright finish. What does the team think I have?

All answers welcome,

Bill

[johnnymac]

Hi Bill,

In the attached thumbnail photo below, the top illustration is the official type-2

In this same thumbnail, in the lower section, it shows the medal you mentioned as being labeled as the re-issue, type1. (click thumbnail to enlarge photo for more details)

Note the differences on the lower medal from the upper medal:

a) There is a lack of detail in the red box area (lower part of windows frames)

b) Also note the missing dot before and after the letters ED.

In Laslo's book, as well as in my own book, we both listed this medal as a re-issue type-1. (I just followed Laslo's listing because I did not want to confuse collectors by listing it as what I felt it was, that being a later issue medal.)

Here is why I think it should have been listed as a late-issue medal, from my book:

Late Issue - With depletion or shortage of existing supply of the original medal, such a medal may be a slightly different manifestation of the original due to the use of different manufacturers and/or the availability of the original dies and hubs. It is the sanctioned replacement for the original issued medal.

Re-issue - is an original issue medal which has been re-issued at a later date for a different event without any changes to the medal’s overall design. A good example is the U.S. National Defense Service Medal, first issued in 1950-1954 for the Korean War and re-issued again in 1961-1974 during the Vietnam War. This medal continued to be re-issued for at least three different campaigns or events after 1974.

Click the photo to enlarge for details.

Edited October 22, 2014 by johnnymac

[RobW]

Hi Bill,

I think you have two official S.Johnson varieties. I have seen many of this type and there have been numerous small variations in manufacture, patina, and finish. Considering the estimated number produced it would not be surprising for some variation.

As has been alluded to earlier in this post, and in comparison pics (#64 & #65) the Reissue type 1 has a much shallower level of detail, no dots on the reverse inscription. The really clear sign is the much wider staffa suspender and thinner planchet overall. I don't have access to my collection so I can't show a side-by-side comparison pic of the two types with ribbons removed.

Regards,
Rob

[johnnymac]

Hi Bill, lets look at the Italian section in Laslo's book.

Throughout Laslo's book, he only illustrated 24 full sets of Interallied medals where he shows both the obverse and the reverse of all the victory medals listed. He also has about 20 semi close-up views of other Interallied victory medals in his book. I did not count the other medals that were not part of the Interallied victory medals, like the Philippine victory medal.

Whereas, in my book, I illustrate over 130 medals showing each medal's obverse and reverse side and many close up views of details on these medals. These illustrated medals are ones that I own or could get from a friend.

I mention this because, in the Italian section of Laslo's book, he listed 11 known Italian victory medals, but he illustrates only 2 sets: the official type-1 and the re-issue type-1, with 1 additional obverse and reverse view. All six of these illustrations are in black and white photos with no close-up details being pointed out.

Laslo listed the reissue type-1 as a contemporary by Johnson. I ask this; can you really tell anything from his black and white photos? To me, it is more like the official type-2 than a contemporary.

This illustration below (the first thumbnail) I feel should have been listed as Johnson's second official medal or as at least as a later issue medal. However, lets examine it as the Laslo's reissue type-1.

It has the same obverse as the one in Laslo's book on page 55.

It has the same legend A, B, C that Laslo pointed out in his book.

It also has less detail than the official issue Laslo spoke of in his book.

I agree with Laslo as far as less details on this medal than Johnson's first medal. I noted the arched line above the letters ERRA P at the top and the missing dots between the letters E & D on the bottom. I also noted the lacking details in the area I marked with a red box in the middle section.

click to enlarge photos

Edited October 24, 2014 by johnnymac