American (US) Victory Medals

[Bilco]

Rob, Jim,

Many thanks for your comments on the Type 1 - it's obviously a subject fraught with pitfalls for the unwary. I was quite surpirised to see four of them on e-bay looking very similar, but I had thought the one with the frayed ribbon was good as it is with a reputable dealer. Just goes to show how you can be caught out when someone has taken a good but common Type 2 and substituted the modern copy for the medal.

Jim, I found my grandfather's grave in Brisbane in 2009 - I was the first one of his family to visit it, as his wife and daughters were back in England when he died. He last saw them in January 1942, when they were evacuated from Singapore, and he and his wife had finally made contact by letter the month before he died. My mother, his elder daughter, married my father in the November. My father had also been in Singapore with the RAF and, like my grandfather, managed to get away just ahead of the invading Japanese. My grandfather had joined the Navy as a boy of 14 in 1907, served through WW1 and retired in 1937. He rejoined the Navy in 1938 and was sent out to Singapore. He and a couple of other Naval officers stole a boat rather than surrender, and sailed across to Java, being bombed and machinegunned en route. He was picked up and taken to Australia. I have to admit to a dampness of the eye and tightness of the throat when I stood in front of his CWGC gravestone.

Bill

[johnnymac]

Bill, thanks for sharing, Jim M.

[johnnymac]

Bill,

They also make a copy of the type-2 as well as the type-1.

I am looking any feed back why they or you, believe there was an issued type-1 outside of the fact that is mentioned in, A. Laslo's book.

[Bilco]

Hi Jim,

Sorry about the rampant thread creep - Grandpa has been in my mind because of Rememberance Day.

I'll be very interested to see what the results of your research into the reality of the Type 1. As far as I can see there hasn't been one posted on this Forum - the closest was a bevelled-lug version here http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/49863-american-us-victory-medals/

Best wishes,

Bill

[johnnymac]

Bill

There is what I call a type-6 reproduction of the type-1. (That's the one most think is the real type-1, because most collector have not seen a real type-1).

There is what I call a type-4A reproduction of the type-2. (That one is 35mm OD, where-as the real type-2 is 36mm OD).

Jim M.

Edited November 16, 2011 by johnnymac

[Bilco]

Jim,

This is all very interesting. I had assumed the existence of a Type 1 only on the basis of seeing it in Laslo. He shows a photograph of one, but I don't know the source of his photos - I don't have the book. He doesn't seem to mention the Type I in the description of the designing and production of the US vic - could it have been a pre-production model, or a short-lived early production version like the Type 1 Great Britain vic?

Would it be possible for you and Rob to post a photo or two of your Type 1s to give a better idea of the appearance, and the pointers to look out for in detecting modern repros?

Bill

[johnnymac]

Here is what I call a type-4A reproduction of the type-2. (That one is 35mm OD, where-as the real type-2 is 36mm OD).

The lower photo is a type-1 on the bottom and the top medal is the type-2

Edited November 17, 2011 by johnnymac

[RobW]

Bill,

I don't have access to my collection at the moment as I'm not in the same location.

When I have time and access I will attempt to take a few photos or scans.

Regards,

Rob

[RobW]

To the US collectors present on this thread,

I am looking for some research assistance with one of my US vics.

I obtained the item with a small lot of assorted items as well as the dog tag belonging to 2nd LT. R.C. Smith, CO. A. 132 INF, USA. The gentleman's full details were: Richard C. Smith Sr. The US vic had engagement bars consistent with service by the 132 Inf Regt, 66th Inf Bde, of the 33rd Inf Div. This is confirmed in a number of different US govt released publications as well as the Planchet Pub released by the OMSA.

What I am trying to establish is if there is any remote chance of determining what the Citation Star was awarded for. I am not naive enough to believe that the US vic and ID disc and associated items may be mated together to effect a sale but am confident in this case a genuine pair are present.

What are the research options available to attempt to find more detail on this gentleman to confirm this Citation Star, or not, and to verify any other awards?

Regards,

Rob

[Bilco]

Hi Gents,

Well, having given up on the Type 1 in the face of modern copies, my latest acquisition is this:

What I believe is a Repro Type 1, French-made US vic. The planchet diameter is 36mm, thickness 2mm, and it has 'Made in France' stamped - rather poorly, and in tiny letters - on the rim.

Obverse. The rough edge at the 5.30 is where the 'Made in France' stamp went off the rim because it wasn't aligned properly.

Reverse.

At least it's a good, honest Repro - I hope! All comments welcome.

Bill

[RobW]

Hi Gents,

Well, having given up on the Type 1 in the face of modern copies, my latest acquisition is this:

What I believe is a Repro Type 1, French-made US vic.

At least it's a good, honest Repro - I hope! All comments welcome.

Bill

Hello Bill,

Yes you are correct; that is a nice Repro type 1 according to Mr Laslo's classification system. They are not that easy to locate.

Aside from 'MADE IN FRANCE' these items are sometimes marked with 'BRONZE' so have a look around the entire rim. There may be that mark also.

In regards the ribbon I would change it because it has the Italian ribbon. If you try to find some good period French made ribbon it would be more correct.

Regards,

Rob

[johnnymac]

Hello If someone is looking for this type medal there is one on ebay for sale, starting $20. ending on Dec13, 2011 Jim

http://www.ebay.com/itm/140658937097?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

[Bilco]

Hi Rob,

Thanks for the confirmation. There is no other stamping on the rim - no Bronze. On the ribbon - it's one of the 39mm wide ones - my Italian original ribbons are 37mm. French ones are 36mm!

Bill

[lambert]

Hello If someone is looking for this type medal there is one on ebay for sale, starting $20. ending on Dec13, 2011 Jim

http://www.ebay.com/...984.m1423.l2649

He does not send to Brazil ...

Lambert

[johnnymac]

Bill listed a French made U.S. Victory in his Post #53 in this section.

This medal, which is like Bill's illustration is grouped with other medals, as well this one is with tons of documents from this guys "Aunt" which he said she gave them to him. The Guy is selling it for school money. The starting trouble I see with it, is it has eight clasps when should only five and all the clasps were made in France, as was the medal itself. I can not say for sure if this person truly knows that the medal is fake or after market or a repro or etc etc. My point is to help the readers here become a better buyer. Note the suspension is the "Ball" type which is used most often by the French. Next pull up a Victory medal you or someone else has and to compare.

http://www.ebay.com/...649180774393212

Edited December 12, 2011 by johnnymac

[lambert]

It may have been built later, but all seem to me claps from the same manufacturer?

"Claps" correct

11th Engineering:

• Cambrai
  
• Lys
  
• St. Mihiel
  
• Meuse - Argonne
  
• defensive Sector
  

other

• Somme offensive (17th, 148th Pursuit Squadron, 27th, 30th, 33rd Div.)
  
• Ypres-Lys (27th, 30th, 37th, 91th Div)
  
• Verdun (not official)
  

In the document itself shows only the claps of the Engineering Corps. others were added later ..

"the communication was numbered engrs.

in applying for you victory medal you are entitled to bars according as to wasther you served in any one of the above datas.

If you desire to have your discharge notice amended you may send it to the adjuntant general office, washington, with a statement showing what additional battle participations you are entitled to other those shown on your discharge notice, the Victory Medal regulations entitle the holders to one bar or star for each battle and one bar ou star for a defensive sector, regardless of the number of defensive sectors at which the holder participated."

Lambert

Edited December 13, 2011 by lambert

[johnnymac]

Lambert é uma medalha de mercado depois de feito na França, o Planchet os grampos, mesmo a fita não são uma boa.

these clasps are technically "just and only" period clasps that came out in or around 1930. "Not one" of them are official, only the names used are official. Two others clasps are names of campaigns and they are also "not" authorized nor were they ever issued. My interest is to run up a red flag to our forum readers who may have interest in this item, not if seller know or did not know,

tecnicamente grampos tese são "apenas e só" grampos período em ouro que o CAM para fora em torno de 1930. "Nem um" de'em são oficiais, apenas os nomes oficiais são usados. Outros dois fechos são nomes de campanhas e eles também são "não"autorizou nem nunca foram emitidas. Meu interesse é correr até uma bandeira vermelha para os leitores o nosso fórum que possam ter interesse neste item, se não sabem vendedor de ouro não sabia,

[johnnymac]

Lambert,

Here is my 11th Engineer medal which I purchased in 1984-85.

[johnnymac]

Lambert,

Below - the large reversed clasp is the same type as the one in question that is for sale.

The clasps with the black background, you will note, are the same style clasps as one mentioned earlier which was for sale on ebay. These fake clasps are offered in all the naval 19 "Duty" clasps, the 5 "Service" clasps, the 14 "Battle" clasps and also in most but not all of the 17 "Campaign" clasps (which were never issued or authorized).

On the bottom left clasp, you see that the word "France" is hidden from view... About 1931, the import law were changed to the another type stamping. I reference the bottom right clasp with "Made in France" on the back of the backstrap.

[lambert]

Hello John.

Yes now I understand better. Even with a setting almost correct, are false clasp. It became clear to me.

In 1985 I had 10 years of age. : D

Lambert

Edited December 16, 2011 by lambert

[RobW]

Hi Rob,

Thanks for the confirmation. There is no other stamping on the rim - no Bronze.

Bill

Hello Bill,

Are you able to take a picture of the MADE IN FRANCE marking on the rim?

Regards,

Rob

[Bilco]

Hi Rob,

After a bit of a focus faff - here it is

At this size it looks like it says 'FRAMCE'! I see now that the rough edge isn't caused by the off-centre stamp.

Bill

[johnnymac]

To all,

I have three of this type medals, one is stamped like Bill's is "Made in Fra"m"ce". And two without any marking at all on the rim, but these two do have clasps which are marked.

Bill, your markings are clearer than the one I have.

Jim

[RobW]

Hi Rob,

After a bit of a focus faff - here it is

At this size it looks like it says 'FRAMCE'! I see now that the rough edge isn't caused by the off-centre stamp.

Bill

Hello Bill,

Thanks for the picture. The size and style of the text matches one that I have.

Regards,

Rob

[johnnymac]

Bill

The stamp you have posted is the one Laslo refers to Repro 1, (p.88) as I am sure you already knew. The one's he ID's as Repro 1A, another "made in France", and Repro, 2 with the "made in Italy" are even harder to find. Both repro types, 1 & 1A will normally be found with the fake U.S. clasps I listed earlier, that is of course if they have clasps attached.

Jim