RobW Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Bill, Here is an illustration of one of the Arthus-Bertrand marks. Source: 'La Médaille coloniale, Guide du collectionneur', Patrick Binet, PBCO Editions, 2010 Regards, Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnymac Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) Bill & Rob, The photo below was taken from the screen of my PC's monitor showing this marking of Arthus-Bertrand as shown on the web. I posted two different sizes of the marking to help illustrate it. Also in my previous posting #497 which shows the U.S. reproduction type-2 along side of the U.S. reproduction type-3, I missed, and did not point out the major different between the two medals on obverse, that being the rays surrounding the head. Like yours, the reproduction type-2 has eleven rays, whereas the reproduction type-3 only has nine rays around the head. Regards to both, Jim http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2015/post-8368-0-08865600-1424616699.jpg Edited February 22, 2015 by johnnymac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilco Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Rob, Jim, Many thanks for your posts and helpful comments. I've rotated a close-up of the stamp to align it with the image in post # 501, and I think it's a pretty good match: The star is at the top of the triangle and the various elements make sense now, with the drawing to compare with the photo. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnymac Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 (edited) Good morning Bill, Here a little background on the imported U.S. Victory Medals - All of the imported U.S. Victory medal came marked and stamped: FRANCE or MADE IN FRANCE, and some with the manufacture's own hallmark stamp as is yours, and some also being marked by India inked with MAKE IN FRANCE. On some of the FRANCE or MADE IN France marked medals, you may also find the word BRONZE. I still find it hard to envision what you and Rob see as the hallmark of Arthus-Bertrand even after you rotated the mark. I am sure there are other members who will have a clearer example of this medal and the maker's mark and hopefully they will post it. Here are a few more examples of the marks of Arthus-Bertrand and you can see how very clear they are, and how the triangle is shaped. Regards, Jim Edited February 23, 2015 by johnnymac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilco Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Hi Jim, I think the second of the 4 photos in your post is very close to my example in shape- although your photo is much clearer than mine! I also have a Reproduction Type 1 which has MADE IN FRANCE on the edge but no BRONZE or maker's stamp. Many thanks Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnymac Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 (edited) See below Edited February 23, 2015 by johnnymac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnymac Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 (edited) Bill, To me your triangle is not as sharp as any of the four posted. As to the second one you can clearly see the letters A,B, Star and the circle (wheel) at the bottom. The photo below shows a 1977 article in the OMSA and it mentions medals with " France" or "Made in France" and "some may have the word Bronze" on the rim. Also on the bottom photo is of the rim with Made in France and the word bronze. Regards, Jim Edited February 24, 2015 by johnnymac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilco Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Hi Jim, Yes, the mark on my medal is rather distorted compared with the example you posted - a worn punch? Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnymac Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 (edited) Bill, You are right it could be a worn punch, but I feel the other readers , other than you, me and Rob who own one of this type medal could help us all get to finish line by posting their markings. Look back at GMIC past posting I found these by Rob and hopefully he will post the marking on his medals to compare to yours. Rob: 02 October 2009 (#8 US) - This particular specimen has both the word 'BRONZE' as well as an unidentified triangle hallmark on the rim. http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2015/post-8368-0-03749700-1424779666.jpg Rob's medal, (in my book this medal is listed as the repro type-2) Rob: 24 November 2009 (#26 US) - I have a few of the French produced U.S. vic reproductions and they have a variety of markings including: * no edge markings. - This medal may have had the India ink printing "MADE IN FRANCE" just rubbed off. * triangle hallmark and 'BRONZE' on the edge. - Bill's medal in question? In my book this medal would be listed as a repro type-2. (see below, it is identical to the repro type-2 in my book). * square hallmark and 'BRONZE' on the edge. - In my book, I listed this medal as a M. Delande repro type-3. with their known bee in the square hallmark. * 'MADE IN FRANCE', large capitals, on the edge. - In my book this medal is a repro type-2. (see above - without the export stamp these two medals are identical right down to the eleven rays surrounding the head.) * 'MADE IN FRANCE', in very small capitals on the edge. ? http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2015/post-8368-0-08788100-1424779690.jpg Rob's medal, (in my book this medal is listed as the repro type-2) Regards, Jim Edited February 24, 2015 by johnnymac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilco Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 (edited) Thanks for that, Jim. I've taken another photo of the mark on the edge under different lighting: I can see on the left side the A and B, and that star at the top, and the circle at the bottom. Perhaps the punch used to make the mark wasn't held vertical when struck, and the bottom right isn't impressed properly. This is much like your second photo in post 504. If anyone else has medals with this mark on please let's see 'em! Bill Edited February 24, 2015 by Bilco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnymac Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 (edited) Good Show Bill, This is the best photo you have submitted so far. I hope one or two more of this type marking are posted. The repro type-2, I have, is marked MADE IN FRANCE. I can now add a manufacturers name to this medal in my book's new expanded edition. Rob said he had several of these medals back in post #26 so I am sure he will post something. Regards, Jim Edited February 25, 2015 by johnnymac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobW Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 (edited) Hello Bill and Jim, In answer to these two posts: Bill, You are right it could be a worn punch, but I feel the other readers , other than you, me and Rob who own one of this type medal could help us all get to finish line by posting their markings. Look back at GMIC past posting I found these by Rob and hopefully he will post the marking on his medals to compare to yours. Good Show Bill, The repro type-2, I have, is marked MADE IN FRANCE. I can now add a manufacturers name to this medal in my book's new expanded edition. Rob said he had several of these medals back in post #26 so I am sure he will post something. Regards, Jim I am not located with my collection at the moment. It is in long-term storage and will be so until at least the middle of next year. Consequently I will not be in a position to add any further pictures of makers marks on the edges of my French produced US vics at this time. As far as the different varieties is concerned I don't have much to add to the comments already posted by me (#26) although since that time I have obtained another French produced US vic that has no markings on the edge at all. It is slightly smaller in diameter than that usually seen and has the characteristic fine details of a French manufactured medal. It is most similar to Bill's most recently posted example but has minor die differences. It is, again, with my collection in long-term storage. I am hopeful that other collectors will also present pics of French made vics in their collections. Regards, Rob Edited February 26, 2015 by RobW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobW Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 Jim, The repro type-2, I have, is marked MADE IN FRANCE. I can now add a manufacturers name to this medal in my book's new expanded edition. It is this constant adding of smaller detail, in such a forum, that can expand already known information; or alternatively totally change someones previous interpretation of existing information. I am hopeful other vic collectors, other than the 'usual suspects', will continue to add to this information store here on the forum. Regards, Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Evenden Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 Hi all new to this forum and just spent the last hour reading trough this topic before deciding to buy this off ebay .hopefully it is ok any obvious alarms ringing for any of you please type away .Will upload better pics when recieved cheers Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobW Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 Hello Paul,Hi all new to this forum and just spent the last hour reading trough this topic before deciding to buy this off ebay .hopefully it is ok any obvious alarms ringing for any of you please type away .Will upload better pics when recievedcheersPaul Firstly, welcome to this forum. I am sure there will be much information here for you to draw on and like-minded collectors to converse with.As for your illustrated example; the medal and the bar looks good. The ribbon on the other hand has been taken from a more recent production, most likely one of the reissue varieties that were released in the 1980's onward. This has the characteristic 'crimp brooch' whereas the original ribbon had the wrap brooch.Not knowing the background to the medal I would not profer an opinion as to how and why the latter ribbon was used.Regards,Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Evenden Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 Thanks for the welcome Rob and of course your reply . I thought the ribbon was a newer variety probably replacing a worn one .This will go in my new collection of VM's 6 down many more to go CheersPaul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnymac Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 Hi Paul, welcome to the forum.I'll explain the problems I see, but first I would agree with Rob's characterisation of the 'crimp brooch and wrap brooch".However, my issues are the clasp and planchet. Both are very old and would not have been placed on a late issue medal. By the 90's this type planchet had already been replaced by two different manufacturers with two slightly different type suspensions. The clasps also would have been a push pin type.I do not use the use word re-issue when it comes to the US Victory medal, I use late issue; Here's why, the US Government was continuously issuing this medal into the 21st century.This below is from my book:Late Issue - With depletion or shortage of existing supply of the original medal, such a medal may be a slightly different manifestation of the original due to the use of different manufacturers and/or the availability of the original dies and hubs. It is the sanctioned replacement for the original issued medal.Re-issue - is an original issue medal which has been re-issued at a later date for a different event without any changes to the medal’s overall design. A good example is the U.S. National Defense Service Medal, first issued in 1950-1954 for the Korean War and re-issued again in 1961-1974 during the Vietnam War. This medal continued to be re-issued for at least three different campaigns or events after 1974.Your medal is a re-ribbon medal.My book is sold only on Amazon.com or UK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Evenden Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 Thanks for the comprehensive answer Jim most appreciated . I will start saving for the book as it would help tremendously .There was me thinking i would start my collecting on an easier subject .That was before the myriad of subtle differences was made evident to me .CheersPaul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Evenden Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Well it arrived today so here are the better pictures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lambert Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Hello Paul.It's an easy collection, but remember that there is a trap along the way, so I recommend you read the topics that were discussed and studied for long. I believe so will have much more confidence with which collect.I also recommend the book by Jim .. .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Evenden Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 (edited) Hi LambertThanks and yes I have read this part of the forum thoroughly for the advice and knowledge that you guys have put up for us beginners .I will have t6o invest in the book also especially when it comes to finding those with the minutest differences.When I start collecting anything I like to have as much information and reference material as possible Paul Edited April 16, 2015 by Paul Evenden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobW Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Hello Paul,Gaining the knowledge is a good thing as it provides context for what you are going to collect. As has been indicated by Lambert, be careful along the way, as there are many 'interesting' items that are not all they seem to be. Once you start down this road you will find there are many varieties to collect.Enjoy adding to your collection.Regards,Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnymac Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 281676510931 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herman Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Bought this one on USMF. Any thoughts by the experts?Thanks in advance,Herman obverse i know it has a split brooch and two unofficial clasps type 4 (as per johnnymacs superb book), but could this be a type 1 (wire loop) VM?regardsHerman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobW Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Bought this one on USMF. Any thoughts by the experts?Thanks in advance,Hermani know it has a split brooch and two unofficial clasps type 4 (as per johnnymacs superb book), but could this be a type 1 (wire loop) VM?regardsHermanHi Herman,You have picked up very nice example. The easiest way to check if it may be a wire loop variety is to look at the width of the planchet. In other examples seen the planchet is a bit thicker with thickness ranges between 2.7 - 3.0 mm. The medal planchet will also be of a much more copper-ish colour.Regards,Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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