EHRENBECHERS-All three kinds!

[Gary B]

Hi,

I believe there is a thread on this forum which shows a Thor goblet awarded to an Engine mechanic.

Gary B

[art wall]

Hi,

I believe there is a thread on this forum which shows a Thor goblet awarded to an Engine mechanic.

Gary B

Okay-

How about giving Mike $20K for his goblet then?

[jaba1914]

Okay-

How about giving Mike $20K for his goblet then?

I don't understand the discussion about the money. I thought you are interested on informations about this goblet but all you want is to know how much it worth.

All about the price is already told. This is a unique piece and costs what ever a buyer is ready to pay.

Regards

Alex

Edited July 28, 2012 by jaba1914

[Gary B]

Okay-

How about giving Mike $20K for his goblet then?

As has been stated it is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If it has been buffed out the price would be less than what I stated, never the less it would be worth more than $15K, IMO. Is $20K a good offer, perhaps. I believe a European auction would be the best venue to see what this is worth.

Gary B

Edited July 28, 2012 by Gary B

[Luftmensch]

Good lord, I'm sorry I missed this wild and woolly discussion. Or maybe not! Either way, a piece of this rarity should be carefully studied by German experts who, as Alex points out, have handled Tors or even have a few kicking around for closer comparison. Also a real definitive study of that cartouche is in order. The numbers quoted seem to be in the realm of quick cash for open questions and the real value at a German auction magnitudes higher once these questions are resolved in an unhurried and systematic fashion.

[jaba1914]

Today no further details can be determined as a result of the loss of documents in the Heeresarchivs during the air raids on Potsdam in early 1945. We do not even know approximately the amount of award pay, or anything at all of the origins or the designer. One could have regarded the topic as closed, were it not for the fact that a few years ago the possession of a modified example become known. Before that, despite the greatest efforts no second type was known to exist, and this example was completely unknown even by experts on the subject. This cup resembles the Flier-Cups with the following deviations in size and form:

An octagon with narrow raised edge shows the god Thor dressed in skins and striding out of a storm with blowing hair and arm raised with a hammer in his fist. In the background are the outlines of clouds from which lightning flashes downwards. To the left of the figure can be seen the name of the god Tor. Between his legs is the signature of an unknown artist EB. The octagon is not exactly in the center but sits more to the upper left than right. The whole scene shows the characteristics of a carefully composed, unique work. Where on the Fliers? counterpart cup the band of writing is situated, a shield, pointed at both ends, with a raised narrow edge, bears a two-line engraved inscription D?NABURG 4.2.1916. The remaining surface is animated by oakleaves which run around both sides and meet in back. On the band is positioned the previously mentioned punch marks.

One can only regret the loss of the relevant documents underpinning this award taken from the quarters of the original holder as American war booty. The original bestowal document and much pictorial material was removed. However the award and the transmittal document remain. From other remaining documents and period records the personal history and military service of the recipient can be reconstructed.

It is interesting that during the raid over Dünaburg on 4th februar 1916 Hptm Erich Linnarz was still the regular commander of LZ 86, before he took over the command of LZ 97 late februar 16, but he was not on bord during this flight.

The airship was led by the 1st officer Hptm Walter Wolff, who later took over the command of LZ 86 after Linnarz.

Regards

Alex

Edited December 17, 2014 by jaba1914

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

It seems Manchaster was not bombed by Zeppelins in 1917 ?

Second Question.... does anyone know what medals Georg Jockers recieved during the war?

Thanks

Chris

[Davidia]

I noticed this post when researching for a biography of my granddad who was a flight engineer on various zeppelins during WW I. His name was Herrmann Schulze and he served on (army) zeppelins right from the start of the war: Z VI (with which he crashed near Cologne after attacking Liege in Belgium on August 5 1914); LZ 35 (which was involved in attacks on Paris and crashed after an attack on Poperinge), LZ 72, LZ 87 (which attacked Ramsgate and Margate and later - while stationed in Königsberg - destroyed a Russian U-Boat) and lastly on LZ 107. By then Zeppelins were no longer of importance and he ended his military career as "Hafenkommandant" in Königsberg. Here is a photo of my granddad:

[Davidia]

Most of the paperwork and memorabilia about my graddad's time with zeppelins during WW I were given to the Zeppelin Museum in Friedrichshafen. But we kept a few things, Amongst them is one of the "Tor Ehrenbecher". I couldn't figure it out, so this post was rather enlightening. 

Übergabe Ehrenbecher Poperinghe LZ 35.pdf

[VtwinVince]

Very interesting, and thanks for giving this thread new life. Do you have more information on your ancestor, such as rank and decorations? I think I see a Saxon Albert Order, but a close-up of the medal bar would be great. OK, just saw the Urkunde for the Tor Becher, now that is what we call a 'Volltreffer'. Incredible. Here is my uncle's goblet and Urkunde.

[Davidia]

The "Ehrenbecher" is solid silver (800), handmade by Bruckmann & Söhne in Heilbronn. The shield bears the writing:

Poperinghe 

13.4.1915

Sorry about the photo 

Übergabe Ehrenbecher Poperinghe LZ 35 Einschreiben.pdf

17 minutes ago, VtwinVince said:

Very interesting, and thanks for giving this thread new life. Do you have more information on your ancestor, such as rank and decorations? I think I see a Saxon Albert Order, but a close-up of the medal bar would be great. OK, just saw the Urkunde for the Tor Becher, now that is what we call a 'Volltreffer'. Incredible. Here is my uncle's goblet and Urkunde.

 

Ah yes, VtwinVince, that is one of the Ehrenbecher given to pilots of fighter planes, I believe. You asked about my granddads decorations. Here are a few... Unfortunately we do not have the medals any more (it wouldn't surprise me if my grandmother didn't throw them away...).

Albrechtskreiz mit Schwertern LZ35.pdf Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse LZ 35.pdf Ritterkreuz 2. Klasse d. Albrechtsordens LZ 87.pdf Verdienstkreuz 1. Klasse Herzog Ernst August.pdf

[VtwinVince]

Thanks for that, and that goblet is a stunner, it even has the wooden Sockel. I'm assuming your grandfather was a Saxon?

[Davidia]

So many of the "Eisernes Kreuz 1. Klasse" were given out - it isn't really terribly special. However, the letter of congratulations might be of interest as there are a lot of names on there who served on LZ 107.

 

Back to the "Tor Ehrenbecher". The zeppelins were the first to bomb cities from the air (starting with Liege). Poperinge was attacked because it was an important railway junction and served the British army as a distribution center of materials, personnel and also as a medical centre to look after injured soldiers. My granddad never talked about it but what I gather from other sources is this: The British air defence peppered LZ 35 which was hit by more than 700 bullets. The crew tried to get rid of every heavy object on board in order to reach the base in Gontrode. But the airship crashed near Maria-Aalter between Brügge and Gent and was subsequently completely destroyed by a storm. Four members of the crew died, but Kommandant Masius (and obviously my graddad) survived. 

Übergabe Eisernes Kreuz 1. Klasse.pdf Glückwünsche z. Eisernen Kreuz 1. Klasse.pdf

Yes, VtwinVince, my graddad was born in Meerane in Saxony.

[VtwinVince]

Fantastic paperwork, truly one of the best Nachlaesse I have seen. And I think you underestimate the importance given to the EK1. My uncle didn't get his until summer 1918, and this was after four years of continuous action. The document for the Braunschweig Verdienstkreuz to a Luftschiffer has to be unique. As an aside, my family was from Magdeburg, although my grandfather ended up at Pillau in 1945, which was a very dire situation.

[Davidia]

Oh wow. I can imagine. It is good to know you honour the memory and history of your forebears.

You asked about a close-up of the medals - difficult as the photo (1917) is quite small. But I've tried to enlarge it... As to the Braunschweig Verdienstkreuz - that I believe may be connected to e pre-war outing of the Duke of Braunschweig and his wife Victoria (just married) from an airfield in Braunschweig in the autumn of 1913. My granddad wrote on the back so we know who we can see here: from the left: Fahringenieur Hermann Schulze, Unbekannt (half visible), Oberleutnant Stapelfeld, Duchess Viktoria Luise zu Braunschweig Lüneburg, Ernst August von Hannover (III) Duke von Braunschweig, Kommandant Hauptmann Masius, Seitensteuermann Schwarz

[Davidia]

13 hours ago, VtwinVince said:

Very interesting, and thanks for giving this thread new life. Do you have more information on your ancestor, such as rank and decorations? I think I see a Saxon Albert Order, but a close-up of the medal bar would be great. OK, just saw the Urkunde for the Tor Becher, now that is what we call a 'Volltreffer'. Incredible. Here is my uncle's goblet and Urkunde.

How good that you have both the goblet and the certificate. Isn't it amazing they went to this trouble so shortly before the end of the war? If your uncle saw more than 4 years of action he was very lucky to survive.  You are taking far better care of your goblet than me... I must try to clean it up!

 

13 hours ago, VtwinVince said:

Very interesting, and thanks for giving this thread new life. Do you have more information on your ancestor, such as rank and decorations? I think I see a Saxon Albert Order, but a close-up of the medal bar would be great. OK, just saw the Urkunde for the Tor Becher, now that is what we call a 'Volltreffer'. Incredible. Here is my uncle's goblet and Urkunde.

 

[jaba1914]

This is an amaging group and extremly rare. In this completness I know only 2 more groups.

 

This is the 14th known award of the Ehrenbecher für erfolgreiche Angriffe aus der Luft and the the 9th exisiting Ehrenbecher. Beside this 9 Ehrenbecher there are 2 bronce figures known that were awarded as a replacement for the Ehrenbecher.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Herrmann Schulze served under Hauptmann Hans Masius on (Z VI), LZ 35, LZ 72, LZ 87 and LZ 107. Masius received the Ehrenbecher as well but for another achivement as an Wachoffizier on Z XI (Antwerpen on 24. Aug. 1914).

I don't have him on the crew of Z VI but he obviously was on the crew.

He started prewar service at the Luftschiffertruppe. He was part of the crew of Z VI before outbreak of war under Hans Masius. and later under Hauptmann Kleinschmidt.

Edited September 6 by jaba1914

[jaba1914]

Quote

must try to clean it up!

 

I would not touch the patina. The condition is fine for more then 100 years.

 

Edited September 6 by jaba1914

[Stogieman]

Wonderful! Thanks for sharing and bringing this back up for all of us!

[VtwinVince]

Yes, as Alex says, do not try to alter or clean the Becher, it has real character. And the connection to the Duke of Brunswick explains that award for sure. It would be excellent to see the reverse of the Luftschiffer-Erinnerungsabzeichen, if possible.

[Luftmensch]

Fascinating--Poperinghe!  We are used to see big cities and important strategic targets on these Tors, but "Pops" was a very important rail centre, and gateway to the whole Ypres Salient.  So it was a very important strategic target.  As Alex says, it was the rarest of the rare that the Urkunde is still together with the Becher.  I heard there are owners of one but not the other staring each other down and nobody wants to be the first to sell!  Congratulations!

 

 

 

[jaba1914]

On 06/09/2024 at 01:11, VtwinVince said:

The document for the Braunschweig Verdienstkreuz to a Luftschiffer has to be unique.

 

 I assume that the Duke of Braunschweig awarded medals to other members of the crew as well. Comander Masius received the Orden Heinrich des Löwen. Steuermann Schwarz might received the cross too.

 

[GMU]

Amazing! Thanks for sharing. Please, please, do not clean the Becher! You will wipe out years and years of history, and value!

[Davidia]

On 06/09/2024 at 13:36, jaba1914 said:

This is an amaging group and extremly rare. In this completness I know only 2 more groups.

 

This is the 14th known award of the Ehrenbecher für erfolgreiche Angriffe aus der Luft and the the 9th exisiting Ehrenbecher. Beside this 9 Ehrenbecher there are 2 bronce figures known that were awarded as a replacement for the Ehrenbecher.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Herrmann Schulze served under Hauptmann Hans Masius on (Z VI), LZ 35, LZ 72, LZ 87 and LZ 107. Masius received the Ehrenbecher as well but for another achivement as an Wachoffizier on Z XI (Antwerpen on 24. Aug. 1914).

I don't have him on the crew of Z VI but he obviously was on the crew.

He started prewar service at the Luftschiffertruppe. He was part of the crew of Z VI before outbreak of war under Hans Masius. and later under Hauptmann Kleinschmidt.

Thank you all for your interest and for your kind advice re the Ehrenbecher - I will not attempt to clean it and will leave the patina as it is. I will - by the way - sell it together with the documentation. I appreciate its rarity and the strange circumstances of the award. But I have other memories and mementoes of my grandfather to cherish. We gave a lot of material from his time on the zeppelins to the museum in Friedrichshafen and wanted to donate the Ehrenbecher as well. But they didn't want it! 

 

I have no information that Hauptmann Masius was on Z VI when this airship attacked Liege - I think the commanding officer was Hauptmann Kleinschmidt. But obviously Masius was in some way connected to Z VI having been present on the jaunt with the Duke of Brunswick. 

 

There is a fairly good account of the fate of Z VI here: http://www.luftfahrtarchiv-koeln.de/Angriff_Luettich.htm 

In the document cited above there is a photo allegedly of Peter Bürvenich - but I believe it to be my grandfather. Hm... What it doesn't tell is family history: The rescued crew stayed in an inn in the nearest village (Merten). During this short stay my grandfather fell head over heels in love with the eldest daughter of the innkeeper - my grandmother. Her parents didn't approve (he was protestand, she was catholic) and eventually - in 1917 - they eloped...

 

This is probably not very rare but I thought you might appreciate it: a zeppelin steering wheel my grandfather kept. When we were children he told us it was form an airship that crashed. But we never thought to ask him which airship it was. 

[Davidia]

On 06/09/2024 at 17:55, VtwinVince said:

Yes, as Alex says, do not try to alter or clean the Becher, it has real character. And the connection to the Duke of Brunswick explains that award for sure. It would be excellent to see the reverse of the Luftschiffer-Erinnerungsabzeichen, if possible.

I have photographed the reverse of the Luftschiffer Erinnerungsabzeichen, VtwinVince - is this what you wanted to see?