blauer_max Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 (edited) Hello everyone, My first post here, seems to be a nice place to be. Well, I just purchased a miniature chain with four small miniatures from WW1. The Chain is very well made by the firm Godet, so It should be a wealthy officers chain, no doubt. Iron Cross House orden of Hohenzollern with swords Pour le mérite Friedrich orden second class. The facts is that the Pour le merite was only awarded about 600 times in WW1, how many of these brave soldiers where actually from Baden? Does any well known historical person pop up in anyones head? The only one I can think of that was awarded all medals that is on the chain is Hermann Göring, everything is correct with the different classes and swords etc. But he was also awarded the order of Zähriger Löwe, and that order is not on the chain. What do you all think? Best Regards Dennis Edited December 6, 2012 by blauer_max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ostprussenmann_new Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Wow, never have seen a chain with a PLM on it. It would be interesting to see whom it belongs too. The Freidrich Ordern 1st Class is a Wuertemberg Order. Think with a 1st Class order of that type, he was a Field Grade offier at a Minimum, but I could be wrong. To answer you Question, I do know of a Baden PLM winners. There are some great sources on here, alot more knowledgable than me. I am sure you will get some help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signalcorps45 Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Wow....... Dean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blauer_max Posted December 6, 2012 Author Share Posted December 6, 2012 Ostpreussenmann: Thank you for some good feedback on the chain, as you say the Friedrich Ordern is a Würtemberg award, which take out Göring directly. I heard somewhere that it was a Baden award. The same source claims that Göring was Born in Baden, but after just checking Wiki it says he was born in Bavaria (as most nazis where). Its hard to try to find out the owner probably, since there is no searchable databases with the needed information. But let's give it a try anyway here. Dean: Thank you! All the best Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W McSwiggan Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 (edited) Very nice chain! Problem in identification includes: Württemberg rolls are crazy (per Rick Research)! This chain is likely a “fashion statement” – not all awards – just the one’s that the wearer found significant. Württemberg fielded a full corps of regulars alone. The Frederick order with swords was rather liberally granted – even in the Knight’s First Class grade – 1,766 per O’Connor. Also per O’Connor – Hermann Köhl was the only known aviator who was a native Württemberger to win the Pour le Mérite. His awards were: Pour le Mérite, Knight’s Cross of Royal Hohenzollern House Order with Swords, Knight 2nd Class of the Order of the Württemberg Crown with Swords, Knight’s Cross of the Württemberg Military Merit Order, Knight’s Cross 1st Class of the Württemberg Frederich’s Order, Austrian Military Merit Cross 3rd Class, Iron Cross 1st & 2nd Class, Wound Badge (Black) and the Observer’s Badge. Clearly – even if this was Kohl’s chain – it is hard to fathom why he would select the awards shown on this chain over the other’s to which he was entitled. Conclusion – not Köhl. Per Hamelman, I count 11 Pour le Mérite awards to Württemberg units – 1 to XIII Corps, 3 to the 26th Infantry Division, 3 to Infantry Regiments, 3 to Mountain Battalion & Regiment and one to the 26th Reserve Division. Done in haste but if I’ve erred, it is on the high side. Pour le Mérite Awards to non-Prussians who were not generals, aviators, surface commerce raiders or submariners were exceedingly rare. They almost automatically were accompanied by the top award from the affiliated prince. I can only guess that the owner of this chain was not a Württemberger or a member of one of that kingdom’s formations. When I speak next with Rick Research, I will ask but I am very pessimistic about identifying the owner. Edited December 7, 2012 by W McSwiggan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blauer_max Posted December 7, 2012 Author Share Posted December 7, 2012 W McSwiggan: Thank you alot for the feedback! As you say, it was probably only the more important medals on this chain. Much of Hermann Görings personal items where taken to the states after the war with returning soldiers of the united states, it makes more sense to me that this should be something taken to the states during or after the WWII than after the WWI. When I checked what medals/orderns Göring actually was awarded in the WWI I found out as I wrote before that all the medals on this chain is correct and some of the more important ones, but I was wondering if this was Görings chain, why is not the Order of the Zähriger Löwe on it? Probably because its not that nice looking to start with. Probably not as high ranking as the medals on the chain? But then again, the odds for that is very low. Just some crazy late night ideas from my side here All the best Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W McSwiggan Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Not sure I get the connection between Göring’s looted decorations and this chain but… Definitely NOT Göring’s. Again, per O’Connor, Volume II page 234 – Göring’s awards were: Orden Pour le Mérite Prussia Royal Hohenzollern House Order, Knight’s Cross with Swords – Prussia Iron Cross I & II Class – Prussia Military Karl-Friedrich Merit Order – Baden Order of the Zäringer Lion, Knight 2nd Class – Baden Pilot’s Badge Observer’s Badge Wound Badge in Black No Württemberg Fredrich Order was awarded to Göring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 As said, not even close to Göring. Has anyone yet noted the actual grade of the Württemberg order? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W McSwiggan Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 (edited) Just got off the phone with Rick Research. His reactions were: 1. Stop with the Göring stuff – definitely not him. 2. Has anyone ever seen a chain with a Pour le Mérite before? 3. Order of the awards is bizarre – highest awards on either end with lowers together in middle. 4. Given the chain at face value – he postulates that the original owner was a Prussian captain. 5. Discounted the possibility that the Fredrich's Order was higher than Knight's 1st Class for many reasons. 6. Discounted the possibility of owner being a General Staffer - suspects a captain in a Prussian Infantry Regiment. He will do some digging but is very pessimistic that anyone will be able to name this chain. Edited December 7, 2012 by W McSwiggan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blauer_max Posted December 7, 2012 Author Share Posted December 7, 2012 That is really kind of both you and him to help, even though you don't get results! Well the Göring idea was just an idea, nothing serious ofcourse. I probably confused the Friedrich orden with the Military Karl-Friedrich Merit Order. That made me confused. Thanks again Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 (edited) 5. Discounted the possibility that the Fredrich's Order was higher than Knight's 1st Class for many reasons. Without even seeing it? Rick, amazing as usual. The Friedrichsorden is indeed a commanders cross. It has another design than the knights cross 1st class. Edited December 7, 2012 by saschaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W McSwiggan Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Without even seeing it? Rick, amazing as usual. The Friedrichsorden is indeed a commanders cross. It has another design than the knights cross 1st class. Wow - you are correct sir! Rick has an excuse - he didn't see - I on the otherhand have no excuse. A bit of a game changer methinks - total of around 60 for combined Commander 1. & 2. Can't wait to tell Rickster! He'll go nuts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blauer_max Posted December 7, 2012 Author Share Posted December 7, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blauer_max Posted December 7, 2012 Author Share Posted December 7, 2012 Here is the big version of the FO. http://www.emedals.com/collectors-gallery/germany/german-states/wurttemberg/orders/wurttemberg-friedrich-order-3 It should be second class according to what I find on Emedals, the first class has no blue "ring" in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VtwinVince Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 That is quite the kettchen. Could you post close-ups of the PLM please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W McSwiggan Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 Here is the big version of the FO. http://www.emedals.com/collectors-gallery/germany/german-states/wurttemberg/orders/wurttemberg-friedrich-order-3 It should be second class according to what I find on Emedals, the first class has no blue "ring" in it. To atone for my sins – the least I can do is take the confusion out of the badge recognition. Knight’s Cross, 2nd Class of the Friedrich’s order is a matte silver cross with a crowned F in the center medallion surrounded by a silver ring. Knight’s Cross, 1st Class of the Friedrich’s order is a gilt cross enameled white with a crowned F in the center medallion surrounded by a gilt ring. There are flames between the arms of the cross and all higher grades. Commander’s Cross, 1st and 2nd Class of the Friedrich’s order is a gilt cross enameled white with a crowned F in the center medallion surrounded by a blue enameled ring carrying the motto of the order – “God and My Right”. There are flames between the arms of the cross. Grand Cross of the Friedrich’s order is a gilt cross enameled white with a bust of King Friedrich in relief in the center medallion surrounded by a blue enameled ring carrying the inscription – “King Friedrich of Württemberg”. There are flames between the arms of the cross. The Commander 1st Class and the Grand Cross also wore stars of varying design on the breast. All classes could be awarded with swords. The grand cross could be awarded with crown as a special mark of distinction. The insignia depicted on the chain shown is that of a commander – class unknown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blauer_max Posted December 8, 2012 Author Share Posted December 8, 2012 The insignia depicted on the chain shown is that of a commander – class unknown. Its the second class? the first class of the FO looks like this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Danner Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 Its the second class? the first class of the FO looks like this What you are showing is a Knight First Class. Note the lack of a blue enamel ring around the center medallion, unlike the cross on the chain. The cross for the Commander grade is the same for the Commander 1st Class and the Commander 2nd Class. The difference is that the Commander 1st Class also includes a breast star. This is a Commander's Cross: And the breast star of the Commander 1st Class: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blauer_max Posted December 8, 2012 Author Share Posted December 8, 2012 Im sorry for my lack of knowledge, but im happy to learn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W McSwiggan Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 Guess a picture is worth a thousand words... Thanks Dave What you are showing is a Knight First Class. Note the lack of a blue enamel ring around the center medallion, unlike the cross on the chain. The cross for the Commander grade is the same for the Commander 1st Class and the Commander 2nd Class. The difference is that the Commander 1st Class also includes a breast star. This is a Commander's Cross: DE_WFO_Cdr_X_UB.jpg And the breast star of the Commander 1st Class: WF2X_Stern_1_UBS.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blauer_max Posted December 9, 2012 Author Share Posted December 9, 2012 It was a complicated system with this FO, if the commander and Knight is looking almost the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W McSwiggan Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 (edited) It was a complicated system with this FO, if the commander and Knight is looking almost the same. While I will not claim to be the smartest guy around here – I’ve been interested in Imperial orders and decorations for about 15 years. I do not collect (other than books) rather – study for understanding of the “system” and the historical soldiers. The joy of Imperial German awards is their complexity and the often quirkiness of bestowals. All that said, in my opinion – the Friedrich’s Order is pretty much the norm for Imperial Orders in terms of complexity. Because there are distinctions, easily observed distinguishing the Grand Cross, Commander Cross and two levels of Knight’s Cross – this is actually one of the easier orders to identify. For many there is no such differentiation other than size. Check Prussian Red Eagle, Crown & Hohenzollern for example. On your chain – we can not state with complete confidence that the Hohenzollern is a knight’s cross. It could be a Commander’s Cross and there is some justification in wondering about that! Welcome to the world of Imperial! Edited December 13, 2012 by W McSwiggan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blauer_max Posted December 14, 2012 Author Share Posted December 14, 2012 I guess thats the charm with it all, first you spend a fortune on something then you have to burn your brain to find out what it really is and whom it belonged to, and even ask others for help with it. Its a great forum, and you all gave me lot's of new valuable information. Im very thankful to you all! Kind regards and merry Christmas Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VtwinVince Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 So, it's not possible to see close-ups of the PLM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blauer_max Posted December 17, 2012 Author Share Posted December 17, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now