A Ribbon Bar Question

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen;

I recently posted the following ribbon bar; at which time I expressed doubt about its authenticity - I am really on a steep learning curve when it comes to ribbon and medal groups. Subsequently a forum member suggested that I post it separately for your opinions. Below is my analysis of the ribbons followed by pictures of the bar.

Please let me know your thoughts and I thank you in advance.

Wild Card

1. EK II

2. Prussian Crown Order.

3. Prussian 1870-71 combatants medal.

4. All I can imagine is a Russian St. Vladimir??

5. Lippe-Detmold military medal; or considering #4, more likely a Russian St. Ann?

6. This looks like something to the Lippe-Detmold Leopold Order; but that was not founded until 1906, so... maybe a Danish Danneborg or Japanese Order of the Rising Sun?

7. W?rttemberg Friedrich Order, or considering the possibilities of #6, a Danish 1896 Danish Golden Anniversary Decoration.

8. Hessen Philip?s Order (grade?) w/swds.

9. Mecklenburg. Could be the Wendish Crown Order (grade?) or MVK.

10. Anhalt Order of Albert the Bear (grade?).

11. Saxon Duchies. Ernestine House Order (grade?) w/swds.

12. Schaumburg-Lippe MVM w/sabers.

With the exception of #3, as near as I can tell, there are no campaign ribbons. Also, I do not make out any long service ribbons. Assuming #4, #5, and #6 to be foreign, and I realize that that is a long shot, but I can?t come up with anything better, why are they mounted ahead of decorations of other German states - especially if they are civil awards? With regard to #?s 8 through 11 where I have inserted (grade?), I am leaving open the option that we could be looking at either officer or lower grade awards - merit crosses, etc.

[Wild Card]

Obverse.

Edited February 11, 2006 by Wild Card

[Wild Card]

Reverse.

[Stogieman]

Nope, here's what I se:

1870 EK2

Prussian Order of The Crown, 4. Klasse

1870/71 KDM

W?rttemberg Olga Order

Lippe Orden des Ehrenkreuz, 3. Klasse

Lippe Leopold Orden

W?rttemberg Friedrich's Order

Hessian Order of Phillip

Mecklenberg Order of The Wendian Crown

Anhalt Albert The Bear

Sax-Ernestine House Order

Schaumberg Lippe

[Deruelle]

Hi,

I just want to know why there is a crown on the blue ribbon of the Crown order ? First time I see one crown on this ribbon.

Regards

Christophe

[Bob Hunter]

Those square pieces on the reverse, are they attachment devices for the swords? Unusual to see a device attached through the ribbon and the mount. The crown and sabers appear to be attached in a more traditional manner.

[Guest Rick Research]

I love this bar. No long services because he hasn't had his XXV in yet.

I would think the 4th and 5th are Russian Saints Vladimir and Anne, but who knows.

The Prussian Crown Order device is particularly exciting because it IS the only one I have seen

on a peacetime ribbon

But that is EXACTLY the device which sits astride crossed swords as the not often enccountered war ribbon device.

The crude nuts and screw devices are typical of 19th century attachments.

I can't account for the mounting precedence, and there are enough ribbons of could be several things to cloud the issue, but from those very distinctive and can only be for 1870-71 non-Prussian war awards, this officer should leap from the pages of a late 1880s Rank List as identifiable.

I only have 1890, nothing before, and nothing again until 1902, for what would be the period here. I suspect that this VERY well decorated officer was very likely a Captain at the time this bar was worn.

The Prussian Crown Order then was considerably rarer than the Red Eagle, especially at the lowest grade, than it became after Wilhelm II came to the throne.

This sounds like the perfect proect for the 24 hours of the Blizzard Of The Century so I will see if I can find him by the ar awards in 1890.

But if he retired or died in 1887...

that's the problem with a bar like this, which COULD date anywhere in the 1880-1895 period.

I've been through the troop units and schools from the first Guards Infantry regiment, through all the infantry, J?gers, cavalry, field and foot artillery, pioneers, railways, Train, and Landgendarmerie in 1890-- no luck.

So he is hiding someplace in a staff or Landwehrbezirk as a zD officer. I doubt with these awards this was a dR or dL officer.

The key awards to look for, since they should be present no matter what year is looked at, would be the "SLVM X" in last place and the "HSEH3bX." The Hessian Philipps-Orden then ALWAYS camne with Xs to military recipients whether for war or peace service (DUMB) so they abbreviations for that in this period never show "X" because those are assumed. That COULD be a peacetime and not 1870 award, then, despite the Xs.

There are very, very few "SLVM X" so that will be the key, I think, combined with the Ernestine with Xs.

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

Thank you all for your comments and questions.

Stogieman, your analysis of ribbons #?s 4, 5 and 6 certainly puts a different spin on it.

Christophe, as I said before, bars and groups are not my strength; but my guess is that the crown device is there to differentiate between the Prussian Crown Order and the W?rttemberg Friedrich Order. This is, of course, an unofficial ?add on?; but I think that we would agree that since this bar does not conform to regulations, so why not?

Bob Hunter, yes, these square nuts are fastening the swords on the Philip and Ernestine ribbons. Because it is covered by the ribbon,I can not tell how the crown device is fastened; but the Lippe swords are secured by a wooden peg through the eyelet - I will post a picture of it which also shows the nut on the Ernestine swords, below.

Rick Research, as always, your input is invaluable. The first thing that appeals to me is the possibility of #4 being a St. Vladimir. While we encounter St. Annas. Stanislaus? and even George's (on older groups, I do not think that I have ever seen a St. Vladimir on an Imperial German group. I agree with your date/period of 1880 -95 (no oakleaves on the EK or Centenary medal); and the seemingly haphazard sequence is really frustrating.

Again, thank you for your interest and input. If I should find out who this belongs to, the answer will be posted.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[Wild Card]

Reverse detail.

[Bob Hunter]

Interesting methods of attachment. Let's hope that RR can pull another rabbit out of the hat and ID the bar.

[Stogieman]

Rick's tied up right now with some business, please be patient with him. Thanks!

[Daniel Krause]

Hit! Hit! Hit!

Otto von Strahl, born Berlin 24.10.1847, long years Adjutant, Royal Hofmeister, Kammerherr and Hofmarschall of HRH the Landgraf von Hessen und bei Rhein, Major z.D., alive 1908 in Philippsruhe- Kesselstadt in Hessen- Nassau. I checked whole 1880, no other one comes close to him: KO4, EK2, DD3, HP3aX, SLVM, RA3, EH3bX, WF3a, he received the missing AB3a, MK3 and RW4 until 1888 ? so a 100% match to this bar!!! He added later a AB2b, BM2, BZ2a, HP2a, OV2a, RAO3Kr, KO2, Cent, EH2bX, WF2b, DD2a, RSt1

Any questions?!?!?

Daniel

[webr55]

Hit! Hit! Hit!

Otto von Strahl, born Berlin 24.10.1847, long years Adjutant, Royal Hofmeister, Kammerherr and Hofmarschall of HRH the Landgraf von Hessen und bei Rhein, Major z.D., alive 1908 in Philippsruhe- Kesselstadt in Hessen- Nassau. I checked whole 1880, no other one comes close to him: KO4, EK2, DD3, HP3aX, SLVM, RA3, EH3bX, WF3a, he received the missing AB3a, MK3 and RW4 until 1888 ? so a 100% match to this bar!!! He added later a AB2b, BM2, BZ2a, HP2a, OV2a, RAO3Kr, KO2, Cent, EH2bX, WF2b, DD2a, RSt1

Any questions?!?!?

Daniel

Great work!!

BTW, died 1921.

[Stogieman]

Congratulations Daniel! Can you lay this out with abbreviations-orders for the many who haven't memorized all the abbreviations? Nice work!!

(And congrats to WC!)

[Bob Hunter]

Congratulations! Well done, Daniel!!

[Guest Rick Research]

Excellent! I had worked through all of 1890 with no luck-- because he was retired by then.

Will not be around much for some time due to medical emergency here, but I see our happy little community functions very nicely indeed when the REAL Good Twin is not around.

[Stogieman]

Don't listen to him.... I'M the REAL Good Twin!@

[Bob Hunter]

C'mon guys, play nice or no dessert for either of you! Know this, good is good but evil is far more marketable!

[Wild Card]

Daniel Krause,

I am astounded I do not know how you managed to make this identification. This bar was previously owned by a collector, now deceased, who was very talented in researching and identifying groups and bars; but he had given up on this one. I simply thought that it could not be done; and for that reason, when I presented it, I did not even ask if it could be identified.

You went beyond the call and I thank you very much.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[Guest Rick Research]

See? Tolja!

It all comes down to having the right Rank Lists to look in, and enough time.

Took me hours to go through 1890, and no joy-- because he was already gone. That's the biggest drawback to any bar that can not be narrowly deduced as to time frame--

many an officer gets a surprise 2 or even 3 piled up awards in one year and then... vanishes.

Of course Daniel still has some Good Years left AND he never sleeps. Ever.

Now would be the time to start training children to read Martin Luther typeface and deciphering Ranglisten hieroglyphics.

[Bob Hunter]

Everytime you say something like that Rick I think I should bail out and start collecting Civil War Uniform buttons...

[HeikoGrusdat]

No no Bob, the right way is to say: PLEASE RICK - TAKE ME AS A CHILDREN AND TRAIN ME!!!!

[Stogieman]

I've tried........ he goes so steenkin' fast you simply cannot keep up with him as his brain is usually running three sentances/thoughts/paradigms ahead of whatever is coming out of his mouth. Couple this with the fact that he is related to Fran?ois SAEZ and talks with his hands............... well, it can get dangerous when he's excited..... Did I mention loud? Yes, very loud too, louder even than the TRUE Good Twin....