help required on german russian west army award.

[ppsh33]

hi hoping someone can help me with this one .outside my usual comfort zone on this award . discovered this example online and seeking some expert opinion on it . thanks in advance ...paul

[bolewts58]

hi hoping someone can help me with this one .outside my usual comfort zone on this award . discovered this example online and seeking some expert opinion on it . thanks in advance ...paul

I believe it's a well-made fake possibly by Alexander Chichikalov, who makes a variety of Freikorps medals and badges as collector copies. Unfortunately, these then end up in the hands of unscrupulous sellers on eBay and other such places and are offered as genuine period pieces. The give-away on these is the aged finish, which is done chemically. Originals usually had a matt yellow-gilt finish that is quite durable. The fact that there's no trace of any finish on this is a big red flag, as far as i'm concerned.

Others might have different opinions. But, for me, I'd give this a wide berth.

By the way, the ribbon is wrong as well.

[bolewts58]

Oh and the other thing I don't like is that relief on the obverse is too pronounced. As you can see on the medal bar I've attached, the detail is in lower relief on the genuine versions.

[dedehansen]

@ Paul, sorry medal isn´t original periode time. I agree with bolewts58

@ bolewts58 Very nice senior NCO bar from a member of the Eiserne Division

KR

Andreas

[ppsh33]

bolewts58 // dedehansen . thank you both for your help on this . i shall give this one a pass. regards paul

[bolewts58]

bolewts58 // dedehansen . thank you both for your help on this . i shall give this one a pass. regards paul

I just saw the medal for sale on eBay. The seller is one of the many aliases of the Ordensammler Club a very well known seller of fake Freikorps awards. Very little of what this guy sells is real and yet he has a rating of 100% on eBay - go figure.

Andreas: Unfortunately, the Freikorps bar is not mine. It belongs to another member here. I just pulled it off another thread to show for comparison. I would kill to have it as genuine Freikorps medal bars are among the scarcest things to find in German collecting.

Edited April 3, 2013 by bolewts58

[ppsh33]

hi bolewts58 , appreciate the tip re the club , another one to add to my avoid list. developing an interest in freikorps awards is akin to dancing in a minefield . the fakes seem abundant , regards paul

[bolewts58]

hi bolewts58 , appreciate the tip re the club , another one to add to my avoid list. developing an interest in freikorps awards is akin to dancing in a minefield . the fakes seem abundant , regards paul

I'm sure I'll get hate mail for saying this. But, ever since the the Poles, those from the Baltic states and especially the Russians started collecting Freikorps material, the amount of well-made fakes has risen exponentially, and a lot of these fakes are coming from these locations.

Edited April 4, 2013 by bolewts58

[Destruction]

I'm sure I'll get hate mail for saying this. But, ever since the the Poles, those from the Baltic states and especially the Russians started collecting Freikorps material, the amount of well-made fakes has risen exponentially, and a lot of these fakes are coming from these locations.

WTH dude? Thanx a lot for good words, I'm coming exactly from Baltics and collecting Freikorps. And since I know only one other guy from Estonia with the same area of interest, I believe this addressed to us? Amazing. Would be nice to hear some comments.

I can also add that the best books up to date about FK awards are written by Russian author Konstantin Nikolayev, and they really helped many people to get the right items for collection, while most of the crap sold on ebay (including the medal in this thread which has nothing to do with original medal even designwise) is coming from Germany.

With best regards,

"Those from the Baltic States"

[bolewts58]

WTH dude? Thanx a lot for good words, I'm coming exactly from Baltics and collecting Freikorps. And since I know only one other guy from Estonia with the same area of interest, I believe this addressed to us? Amazing. Would be nice to hear some comments.

I can also add that the best books up to date about FK awards are written by Russian author Konstantin Nikolayev, and they really helped many people to get the right items for collection, while most of the crap sold on ebay (including the medal in this thread which has nothing to do with original medal even designwise) is coming from Germany.

With best regards,

"Those from the Baltic States"

WTH dude? Thanx a lot for good words, I'm coming exactly from Baltics and collecting Freikorps. And since I know only one other guy from Estonia with the same area of interest, I believe this addressed to us? Amazing. Would be nice to hear some comments.

I can also add that the best books up to date about FK awards are written by Russian author Konstantin Nikolayev, and they really helped many people to get the right items for collection, while most of the crap sold on ebay (including the medal in this thread which has nothing to do with original medal even designwise) is coming from Germany.

With best regards,

"Those from the Baltic States"

Hey. I believe it was you who told me on more than one occasion that the fakers of Freikorps badges were mainly in Latvia and Russia. If most of the Frekorps fakes are made in Germany, then I stand corrected. In any event, I wasn't damning all Russians or those from the Baltic for the actions of a few bad apples anymore than I would blame all Germans for fakes coming from there. I also agree about the books by Nikolayev, although I don't own them, yet. There are fakers of militaria everywhere, especially the US. But, I was always led to believe that Freikorps fakes mainly came from those 2 locals.

[bolewts58]

I'll add however, that the biggest sellers of Freikorps fakes are obviously German eBay sellers and the list of these keeps growing. As you will remember, I got stuck with the Würzburg Plakette, which i didn't like the moment I got it. Yet, the seller wouldn't take it back. I ended up selling it as a likely fake for less than half of what I paid.

You have to agree, however that Alexander Chichikalov in Russia, whether you call them collectors copies or not is nevertheless reproducing many Freikorps awards.

[Destruction]

Hi Brian,

Except mentioning Chichikalov as a maker of infamous copies (some of which are even maker marked as such) I do not recall myself telling about any other FK decorations reproduced, especially in Baltics.

Anyway, can you pls check again the post on which I reacted? I do not care if someone is telling that fakes are produced in Russia, Latvia, Thailand or USA, but what you wrote was a clear attempt to connect collectors from mentioned countries with increasing quantity of fakes coming from this locations--that's how it looked for me. Does it mean that in your opinion i provide items from my collection to fakers? Or some other guys do?

[bolewts58]

Hi Brian,

Except mentioning Chichikalov as a maker of infamous copies (some of which are even maker marked as such) I do not recall myself telling about any other FK decorations reproduced, especially in Baltics.

Anyway, can you pls check again the post on which I reacted? I do not care if someone is telling that fakes are produced in Russia, Latvia, Thailand or USA, but what you wrote was a clear attempt to connect collectors from mentioned countries with increasing quantity of fakes coming from this locations--that's how it looked for me. Does it mean that in your opinion i provide items from my collection to fakers? Or some other guys do?

No. You misunderstood what I said. I meant that some fakes are being manufactured in those places. But, they're being manufactured in Germany too as well as other countries. I didn't mean that collectors (like you) are selling fakes. I haven't encountered anything like that. But, in the case of crooks like the "Club". for example, I don't believe that they are directly making the fakes that they sell. I believe they're being made by others, likely outside Germany and sold by the "Club" and other spurious dealers. It's a long-held practice to use eastern European jewellers, largely because jewelers in eastern Europe still retain many of the old skills. Klietmann and Blass, for example had very finely-made Knight's Crosses (among other things) made in Hungary in the 1970s, and then passed these off as originals and largely got away with it because they had established-reputations. Then, there's Klietmann's collection of Godet dies, which he used to produce all manner of "authentic" stuff after 1945, which is why I get great amusement when the new breed of "expert" in Germany waxes poetic about this Godet piece or that, when there's a good chance that the piece is one of Klietmann's. Many long-time collectors know the truth about these two gentlemen, and their accomplices. Unfortunately, enough time has passed that their well-made fakes have now gone into 2nd and 3rd generation collections as genuine items. Fortunately, because of the Internet, it's far more difficult to pull off this type of major misrepresentation. But, there are still people out there, despite the warnings from forums like this, who are buying the fakes from the "Club" and other sellers, for example.

As an aside, the interesting thing is that despite all the warnings about dealing with Russians (a lot of German eBay sellers won’t sell to them), it's Germans, who have given me the most grief as a collector, and the French, Belgians and Spanish who have caused the most problems for me as a seller on eBay. My Russian customers on eBay are among my best. They pay good prices and always pay on time. The French are among the worst. They bid and never pay. The most dishonest sellers I've encountered are Germans. They don't accept returns or give refunds and some are among the nastiest people I've ever encountered.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

I cannot remember where I heard it for the first time, but "latvian fakes" has been a term used on most of the forums for quite some time, less now than a few years ago and usually talking about WW2... cant remember when I last heard it...

[dante]

Always happy to show off my baby.........

[dante]

In wear..........

[Destruction]

Hi,

I cannot remember where I heard it for the first time, but "latvian fakes" has been a term used on most of the forums for quite some time, less now than a few years ago and usually talking about WW2... cant remember when I last heard it...

Hi Chris,

Yep, "Latvian Fakes" was a term used for some well made Imperial and 3rd Reich fakes some time ago, supposedly produced in here. I'm not happy with this name, but I take it easy Anyway, this term never included Freikorps items.

[Destruction]

No. You misunderstood what I said. I meant that some fakes are being manufactured in those places. But, they're being manufactured in Germany too as well as other countries. I didn't mean that collectors (like you) are selling fakes. I haven't encountered anything like that. But, in the case of crooks like the "Club". for example, I don't believe that they are directly making the fakes that they sell. I believe they're being made by others, likely outside Germany and sold by the "Club" and other spurious dealers. It's a long-held practice to use eastern European jewellers, largely because jewelers in eastern Europe still retain many of the old skills. Klietmann and Blass, for example had very finely-made Knight's Crosses (among other things) made in Hungary in the 1970s, and then passed these off as originals and largely got away with it because they had established-reputations. Then, there's Klietmann's collection of Godet dies, which he used to produce all manner of "authentic" stuff after 1945, which is why I get great amusement when the new breed of "expert" in Germany waxes poetic about this Godet piece or that, when there's a good chance that the piece is one of Klietmann's. Many long-time collectors know the truth about these two gentlemen, and their accomplices. Unfortunately, enough time has passed that their well-made fakes have now gone into 2nd and 3rd generation collections as genuine items. Fortunately, because of the Internet, it's far more difficult to pull off this type of major misrepresentation. But, there are still people out there, despite the warnings from forums like this, who are buying the fakes from the "Club" and other sellers, for example.

As an aside, the interesting thing is that despite all the warnings about dealing with Russians (a lot of German eBay sellers won’t sell to them), it's Germans, who have given me the most grief as a collector, and the French, Belgians and Spanish who have caused the most problems for me as a seller on eBay. My Russian customers on eBay are among my best. They pay good prices and always pay on time. The French are among the worst. They bid and never pay. The most dishonest sellers I've encountered are Germans. They don't accept returns or give refunds and some are among the nastiest people I've ever encountered.

Hi Brian,

Thanx for making it clear. I do apologize if I was too brutally ironic in some posts.

Back to the object of discussion. A question--does any of you gents have ever seen an award list to this medal? I mean , it's a kinda usual to see Eiserne Division and SSVK medals urkunde, but I have never seen one for this medal. Have you?

[Paul R]

Were any of the last three medals on Dante's medal bar worn after 1933?

[bolewts58]

Hi Brian,

Thanx for making it clear. I do apologize if I was too brutally ironic in some posts.

Back to the object of discussion. A question--does any of you gents have ever seen an award list to this medal? I mean , it's a kinda usual to see Eiserne Division and SSVK medals urkunde, but I have never seen one for this medal. Have you?

Do you mean a list of recipients? If so, I doubt that there was ever an accurate record of recipients for most Freikorps awards, given how Freikorps formed, merged and disbanded.

I've only ever seen one award document for the SSVK medal. It belongs to Chris Boonzaier. I believe he's posted it here before.

[bolewts58]

Were any of the last three medals on Dante's medal bar worn after 1933?

I'm sure they were worn, but not officially as they were all banned in 1935.