Mecklenburg-Schwerin 14 place medal bar / Mecklenburg-Schwerin, Reuss, etc.

[Claudio]

Dear forumites,

I was pretty lucky to adquire the following huge medal bar (14 place!!!) medal bar:

• Preußen: Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse am Kämpferband, 1914-1924 (OEK 1909);
• 3. Reich: Kriegsverdienstkreuz 2. Klasse mit Schwertern (OEK 3835);
• Mecklenburg-Schwerin: Militärverdienstkreuz 2. Klasse am Band für Kämpfer, 1914 (OEK 1352);
• Reuß: Fürstlich Reussisches Ehrenkreuz 3. Klasse mit Schwertern (OEK 2005/1) S/G;
• Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt: Fürstlich schwarzburgisches Ehrenkreuz 3. Klasse mit Schwertern, 1870-1918 (OEK 2785) S/sv ;
• Hamburg: Hanseatenkreuz (OEK 688);
• Österreich: Militärverdienstkreuz 3. Klasse mit KD;
• 3. Reich: Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer mit Schwertern (OEK 3803/1) St br;
• Reuß ältere Linie: Erinnerungszeichen zum silbernen Ehejubiläum, 1909 (OEK 2057) S;
• Braunschweig: Orden Heinrich des Löwen, Ehrenzeichen 2. Klasse, 1908-1918 (OEK 634) Br;
• 3. Reich: DA 1. Klasse für 25 Dienstjahre, Kreuz (OEK 3852) E vg;
• 3. Reich: DA 3. Klasse für 12 Dienstjahre, Medaille (OEK 3854) E vg;
• 3. Reich: Medaille zur Erinnerung an den 1. Oktober 1938 "Sudetenanschluss", 1938-1941 (OEK 3517);
• Ungarn: Erinnerungsmedaille 1914 – 1918 für Kämpfer

I am pretty sure that the officer would have to have been a Reussischer citizen, since he has 2 decorations from that minute state in Central East Germany on his bar (nos. 4 and 9) and to get no. 9 I believe that he had to be resident there. I certainly saw uninterruptible service in the Army from the beginning of WWI until WW2, since he had both LS awards for 25 years of service.

Nevertheless I am afraid that the original medal bar's wearer cannot identified, because of the Reuss ordenlisten's loss/destruction during WW2.

Thank you in advance for looking into the matter... I surely appreciate all kind of educated comments on the bar and its combination.

ciao,

Claudio

[Deruelle]

Very impressive Claudio as always. I'm still impressed by your collection. Congrats. I imagine, of course that this bar is made by Godet !

Will see in the Reichsheer RL if there is a name for you.

Chirstophe

[Dave Danner]

I don't know of any Reichsheer matches. More likely, then, he went to the police and returned to the Army in 1935.

The most likely candidate is Georg Meissenburg of IR 96. He was not a Reuß citizen, but from Mecklenburg-Schwerin:

Georg Helmuth August Friedrich Meissenburg, born 14.8.1891 in Alt-Schönau, Mecklenburg-Schwerin. He entered IR 96 as a Fahnenjunker on 1.9.1909, was promoted to Fähnrich on 17.5.1910, and to Leutnant on 27.1.1911 with a Patent of 29.1.1909. He went to war with IR 96 and was lightly wounded in November 1914. He was promoted to Oberleutnant on 22.3.1915 and is still shown as an Oberleutnant in the 1919 Dienstaltersliste. The Ehrenrangliste has him as a Hauptmann a.D., so he probably received a "bump" to char. Hptm. after leaving active duty.

The jubilee medal is from Reuß jüngere Linie, not Reuß ältere Linie. Heinrich XXVII. Fürst Reuß j.L. was married to Prinzessin Elise zu Hohenlohe-Langenburg on 11 November 1884, so their 25th anniversary was in November 1909. As a young Fahnenjunker in IR 96 at that time, Meissenburg was probably stuck with ceremonial duties and could have received the Ehrenzeichen for this.

He is shown in the 1914 rank list with the Braunschweig decoration, the only IR 96 officer with it. Since that is not an officer-grade award, he may have also received it as a Fahnenjunker for duties related to the jubilee.

His Mecklenburg-Schwerin Militärverdienstkreuz 2.Klasse was gazetted in June 1915. He was awarded the Fürstlich schwarzburgisches Ehrenkreuz 3.Kl. mit Schwertern from Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt on 30 July 1915.

So three of the awards on the medal bar are confirmed - Braunschweig, Mecklenburg-Schwerin and Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt. The Reuß awards are a good possibility, given his service.

I can check if he has a Wehrmacht Personalakte when I next get to the National Archives. If he was still on active duty in 1945, perhaps as a Wehrbezirk officer, he may have a file there. If we are lucky, we might get his full service record.

Regards,

Dave

[Claudio]

Merci Christoph! ... to tell the truth I don't know how it looks on the back, because I haven't got it, yet, and on the catalogue there isn't a picture of the back of the bar nor a description of it. From the way the ribbons have been folded, especially the threads on the base of the rings and its overlapping of the ribbon to cover them, I can tell almost for sure that is not Godet, although it's really well, professionally put together medal bar. It would be great if you could look it up on the Reichsheer Rangliste.

@ Dave: what can I say? Wow... what a research and in a such short time! Maybe the clue was the only Braunschweig decoration with the 96th IR officers? Amazing... Do you think that the combination of the 3 Braunschweig, Mecklenburg-Schwerin and Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt decorations could be unique? Strangely the 25 years WH-LS awards should show quite a long career as professional/active officer after 1920... Thanks a lot for your corrections (Jubilee medal was wrongly described on the auction's catalogue) and for look it up in the WH-Personalakte, when you will have time...

Thanks again to the both of you!

[Daniel Krause]

Hi Claudio,

Dave is right. Meissenburg is the only possible candidate.

I checked my files, there is only one guy with that combo :-)

Lots of greetings

Daniel

[Claudio]

Thanks Daniel to confirm it for me... ;-)

I guess it will be quite difficult to get any information on this obscure officer after WWI... :-( But I guess he must have reached at least the rank of Major or Oberstleutnant, due to his 25 years of service, maybe in some Wehrbezirk. There are quite a lot of example of very well decorated WWI veterans who served in the administration and in the rear echelons at the front. It is possible that the police service it is counted in order to get an Heer LS award? I was unaware of that.

Thanks for your inputs!

ciao,

Claudio

[Paul C]

Nice bar. Maybe with some luck his record will be at the US Archive.

[Claudius]

What a splendid medal bar! And congratulations on finding the name. Maybe there is a photo of this gentleman?

[Claudio]

@ Paul and Claudius: thanks for your nice comments!

For the moderator; is it possible to change the tag from Reuss to Mecklenburg-Schwerin? Thanks!

[redeagleorder]

Really nice bar. The jubilee medal is beautifully designed!

Matthew

[Claudio]

Yes Matthew, it's really a very nice medal, rarely seen on medal bars, especially of military personnel... It would be nice to know how many they were awarded, maybe just a couple of thousands.

Here's another huge bar sold by HH last year for Eur 5'000.- + commission

66. Auktion (18.-19.10.2012)

Los Nr. 3188 Ordensschnalle des fürstlichen Kammerdieners August Fleischer

20-teilige Ordensschnalle mit Preußen:

1. Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse 1914,
2. Deutsches Reich: Ehrenkreuz für Kriegsteilnehmer ohne Schwerter,
3. Reuß: Goldene Verdienstmedaille des Ehrenkreuzes mit Krone und Schwertern,
4. Reuß jüngere Linie: Erinnerungszeichen zum Silbernen Ehejubiläum 1909,
5. Reuß: Goldene Verdienstmedaille des Ehrenkreuzes,
6. Reuß jüngere Linie: Silberne Verdienstmedaille "Für treue Dienste" mit der Krone ab 1909,
7. Reuß-Lobenstein-Ebersdorf: Bronzene (stark vergoldet!) Verdienstmedaille,
8. Braunschweig: Verdienstkreuz 1. Klasse in silbervergoldeter Ausführung der Firma Siebrecht mit Sternchen, "S" und "900"-Punze,
9. Sachsen: Albrechtskreuz mit separat geprägtem Kopf des Stifters im Medaillon,
10. Preußen: Verdienstkreuz in Silber (am falschen Band),
11. Sächsische Herzogtümer: Verdienstkreuz des Ernestinischen Hausordens mit separat geprägtem Kopf,
12. Preußen: Kreuz des Allgemeinen Ehrenzeichens,
13. Sachsen: Ehrenkreuz,
14. Bulgarien: Verdienstkreuz (6. Klasse) des Zivilverdienstordens,
15. Mecklenburg-Schwerin: Silbernes Verdienstkreuz des Ordens der Wendischen Krone,
16. Meckelnburg-Schwerin: Silberne Verdienstmedaille ab 1872 mit Stempelschneider "W. KULLRICH F." im Medaillenrand,
17. Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha: Verdienstmedaille in Gold des Sachsen-Ernestinischen Hausordens mit Bildnis Herzog Alfreds und Stempelschneider "LAUER",
18. Schaumburg-Lippe: Goldene Verdienstmedaille ab 1893 mit der lippeschen Rose im Wappenschild,
19. Mecklenburg-Schwerin: Silberne Medaille Friedrich Franz III. mit Zieröse für Zivilpersonen,
20. Sachsen: Silberne Friedrich August-Medaille am Friedensband.

Außergewöhnliche Ordensschnalle mit 20(!) Ehrenzeichen von 34,5 cm Länge. Besonders die Goldene Verdienstmedaille mit Krone und Schwertern (Position 3) des gemeinschaftlich verliehenen reußer Hausordens von großer Seltenheit. Bei der Lobenstein-Ebersdorfer Medaille (Position 7) handelt es sich vermutlich um eine von der jüngeren Linie Reuß übernommenen (fehlende "LXXII" unter der Namenschiffre) Auszeichnung für 25 Dienstjahre Hofbediensteter, wie sie bisher von der Literatur nicht gewürdigt wurde. Die nachfolgenden drei Lose aus gleichem Besitz.

[Dave Danner]

No luck at the archives. There was no HPA file, no casualty card, no SS file, and no SA file. He probably retired before 1945, so his file was no longer with the active officer files.

He is also not in that "Offiziersliste 03.01.39" being published on the Panzer-Archiv.de forum. There are names missing from that list, however. I don't have any original 1939 seniority lists or Stellenbesetzungen to check.

If he entered service in September 1909 and had his 25 years' service by September 1939 (how late did they award Wehrmacht DAs?), then he could only have been out of qualifying service for no more than 5 years. Since he is not in Reichswehr rank lists, that leaves a few possibilities:

(1) He was an E-Offizier in the Kriegsmarine, whose DA is identical. Not likely, but I don't have any Navy references to check.

(2) Polizei

(3) Angestellter im Reichswehrdienst

If he is not in the 3.1.39 Offiziersliste but he was active before the end of 1939 to get the WHDA1, then he could have been a Reichswehr/Wehrmacht civilian official (and perhaps reserve officer) and went on active duty in 1939. Most Army officers who went from the Imperial Army to the police to the Wehrmacht were transferred from the police on 15.10.35, but I suppose he could also have stayed in the police until 1939.

Long story, short: I got nothin' to add.

[Claudio]

Thanks a lot Dave! Sorry for the troubles of searching this officer in Archives... I checked also the Kriegsmarine lists I have on file on my computer, but I didn't find any Meissenburgs... Very likely he was a Reichswehr employee or a Police officer. Who knows, maybe I get lucky and something else of Meissenburg's stuff will surface on the net (Ebay, Auctions, other collectors). I will keep an eye open, like I do for all other named groups of mine... :-)

thanks again!

ciao,

Claudio

[redeagleorder]

Yes Matthew, it's really a very nice medal, rarely seen on medal bars, especially of military personnel... It would be nice to know how many they were awarded, maybe just a couple of thousands.

Here's another huge bar sold by HH last year for Eur 5'000.- + commission

66. Auktion (18.-19.10.2012)

Los Nr. 3188 Ordensschnalle des fürstlichen Kammerdieners August Fleischer

20-teilige Ordensschnalle mit Preußen:

1. Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse 1914,
2. Deutsches Reich: Ehrenkreuz für Kriegsteilnehmer ohne Schwerter,
3. Reuß: Goldene Verdienstmedaille des Ehrenkreuzes mit Krone und Schwertern,
4. Reuß jüngere Linie: Erinnerungszeichen zum Silbernen Ehejubiläum 1909,
5. Reuß: Goldene Verdienstmedaille des Ehrenkreuzes,
6. Reuß jüngere Linie: Silberne Verdienstmedaille "Für treue Dienste" mit der Krone ab 1909,
7. Reuß-Lobenstein-Ebersdorf: Bronzene (stark vergoldet!) Verdienstmedaille,
8. Braunschweig: Verdienstkreuz 1. Klasse in silbervergoldeter Ausführung der Firma Siebrecht mit Sternchen, "S" und "900"-Punze,
9. Sachsen: Albrechtskreuz mit separat geprägtem Kopf des Stifters im Medaillon,
10. Preußen: Verdienstkreuz in Silber (am falschen Band),
11. Sächsische Herzogtümer: Verdienstkreuz des Ernestinischen Hausordens mit separat geprägtem Kopf,
12. Preußen: Kreuz des Allgemeinen Ehrenzeichens,
13. Sachsen: Ehrenkreuz,
14. Bulgarien: Verdienstkreuz (6. Klasse) des Zivilverdienstordens,
15. Mecklenburg-Schwerin: Silbernes Verdienstkreuz des Ordens der Wendischen Krone,
16. Meckelnburg-Schwerin: Silberne Verdienstmedaille ab 1872 mit Stempelschneider "W. KULLRICH F." im Medaillenrand,
17. Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha: Verdienstmedaille in Gold des Sachsen-Ernestinischen Hausordens mit Bildnis Herzog Alfreds und Stempelschneider "LAUER",
18. Schaumburg-Lippe: Goldene Verdienstmedaille ab 1893 mit der lippeschen Rose im Wappenschild,
19. Mecklenburg-Schwerin: Silberne Medaille Friedrich Franz III. mit Zieröse für Zivilpersonen,
20. Sachsen: Silberne Friedrich August-Medaille am Friedensband.

Außergewöhnliche Ordensschnalle mit 20(!) Ehrenzeichen von 34,5 cm Länge. Besonders die Goldene Verdienstmedaille mit Krone und Schwertern (Position 3) des gemeinschaftlich verliehenen reußer Hausordens von großer Seltenheit. Bei der Lobenstein-Ebersdorfer Medaille (Position 7) handelt es sich vermutlich um eine von der jüngeren Linie Reuß übernommenen (fehlende "LXXII" unter der Namenschiffre) Auszeichnung für 25 Dienstjahre Hofbediensteter, wie sie bisher von der Literatur nicht gewürdigt wurde. Die nachfolgenden drei Lose aus gleichem Besitz.

I think the wearer is the guy who came up with the theme song 'I Want It All'. And not of officer status to boot!

Good luck finding more info about Meissenburg