Soviet Order of Lenin - 1st Type

[Wild Card]

Yet it is worthwhile to observe that this particular dealer -- and note how carefully we avoid names while leaving no doubt at all of whom we speak --.

Hi Ed,

The dealer's web page is spelled out in post #1 and his first name is in poast #6 all of which I think leaves little doubt...

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[Wild Card]

Who the heck can afford spending that much money in just one single piece?!!! An oil company owner?!...

Dolf

Hi Dolf,

Why not? If they can buy one of our largest oil companies (Getty)...

It is unfortunate for collectors and historians of modest financial means that this has happened in our area of collecting interest. In the past stamp, coin and art collecting worlds were similarly corrupted when corporations started ?investing? in their areas of interest. Having been to a few auctions where ?New Russians? were bidding, I can tell you that the only limit is ego.

I suspect that they have raised even more havoc in the Imperial Russian area (any opinions out there?); and I know that they are a factor with regard to the very high end Third Reich price inflation.

I wish that I could close on an optimistic note; but I really don?t see any change; at least not in the near future.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[Stogieman]

Well, finite supply, deep pocket investors, anybody who "has" will do very well...........

Anybody who "has not"..........

Anybody trying to play catch up?

Well your areas of pursuit have just been "focused"...... thankfully, it seems that decent combat groups with real research potential behind them seem to be (I know, I know) relatively affordable..... for the moment!

[order_of_victory]

Well they've both been sold

Some one obviously thought the price was right for both pieces

[Guest Darrell]

Well they've both been sold

Some one obviously thought the price was right for both pieces

Well .... I can't tell a lie

It wasn't me ......

[Vatjan]

Might I propose that in the future, instead of (or together with) posting direct links to objects on ebay or from an online dealer, we post some pix of this item.

These discussions are quickly rendered obsolete once the item dissapears from the net.

Also, especially for such rare seen items, some reference pix would be a great addition to this, or any, forum.

Jan

I'll try to set the good example, unfortunately I only saved the obverse pic

Picture Courtesy: Atlantic crossroads

Edited February 21, 2006 by vatjan

[Stogieman]

Good point Jan..... one of my "Evil Twin"'s? "pet-peeves".

[Ed_Haynes]

There are issues of copyright and intellectual property in using images (1) from a dealer's site and (2) of items which a dealer has transferred to the custody and legal "ownership" of another party. The Chairman may want to rule on this? Dealers may be approached to give permission to use their images with attribution (we have done this with some good folks for the OMSA site, and it is a good advert for them anyway), but what about a piece once it is sold??

Edited February 22, 2006 by Ed_Haynes

[Stogieman]

Ed, valid points. For me, I retain rights/ownership of all images/text, even once the item is sold. It's pretty easy to spot my pix, despite the lack of a "watermark".... the astro-turf background is pretty recognized... of course that's why I get P/O'd when someone on eBay selling C~R~A~P is using a similar backdrop....

I would think that most dealers would be happy to have their images posted as long as they are attributed. Good (A/K/A "Free") publicity is hard to find!

[Stogieman]

.... Of course the flip-side is the B~A~D dealer will get ripped when his images are used, especially when they are showing items being labeled as "inconsistent with reality/authenticity/accepted standards"...... My experience with dealers and being one is that the ones that are screaming & yelling are the ones to avoid.

Of course I am not speaking of the written word, the intellectual property and/or images of an individual who has spent hours preparing a treatise/dissertation on any given subject. That's another matter. However, I think once you post it on the net it becomes "public domain" does it not?

[Guest Rick Research]

All it takes is politely asking for permission.

Having known Igor for 10+ years now, I have asked him in the past if I could post his images in discussions (he takes much better photos than I can ever dream of, especially of these wretched screwback reverses or the inside of hats that the best scanner in the world cannot get as good as a camera) and have received such permission personally.

All it takes is being gentlemanly.

Then there are those "under no conditions without written permission" notices in BOOKS, which if we were to follow would result in...

endlessly unanswered international correspondence.

My own feeling is that when we MUST post something from a book, do the ? credits. I have been doing this and plugging Biblio Verlag's Generals and Admirals biographical volumes for years. If some international copyright lawyer wants to sue me, I would suggest that my enthusiastic and glowing recommendations upon all such occasions that the world Go Forth And Buy said volumes puts more business their way than their thundering lack of marketing ever has. BUY THOSE BOOKS. USE EPSON 2400 SCANNERS. DRINK ...

eBay auctions are another example where it is absolutely POINTLESS to post links without images, because whatever it is, is GONE in 10 days. It is again, my personal interpretation of "fair use" that publicizing GOOD items increases the saleability of items for such sellers so they should be thrilled, happy, AND grateful. Publicizing BAD items...

well, THEY can object... and the images WILL be removed:

and we WILL discuss (at great length) exactly WHY, won't we?

I do NOT think it is fair to post ANY scan of an unknown person's property, unsourced, without credit/source/permission. (The obvious exception are those endlessly recycled internet funnies which are often years old and lost in the original mists of time.) If permission has been received from the seller, while said item was the seller's, that is fine. The current owner may object-- but I have never had that situation arise.

We are, after all, the Sharers And Likeminded Pals.

I have scanned many things for people who cannot, and post with their permission. The scans are mine, since I made them, but the items are not. I say so when posting such. But any third party, while entitled to save images for their own use, is NOT entitled to repost such scans without receiving permission.

Being IN the "public domain" does not entitle the lazy and the loutish to take and repedal as their own work the work of others. None of us give up our rights to our images of our items, or our words, by posting them for sharing with fair-minded folk with similar interests. We are normally quite pleased to be

ASKED

if our work can be shared someplace.

Not asking and using the work of others is as boorish as stealing it is.

[Bryan]

Damn, I was too late to buy this Order of Lenin. I should have sold my Faberg? egg to back my purchase.

By the way vatjan the pictures are still on-line, but the link is not there anymore. Here is the back for you.

By the way Ed_Haynes, Igor has no problem we post pictures from his website as long as we keep the "Atlantic Crossroads Inc." logo on the picture. You can ask him, he will answer you the same thing.

Edited February 22, 2006 by Soviet

[Gerd Becker]

Like it seems the buyer took a few other goodies as well, like the Kutuzov 1st class, the Nakhimov 2nd class and the Uhsakov 2nd class. What a package!

[Stogieman]

Well, like I said, the legit dealers usually don't object. Free publicity is free publicity!

I agree, that must have been some kind of special check Igor received! Probably had Brinks make the delivery! Can you imagine trusting something like that in the mail system!???

[Gerd Becker]

Well, like I said, the legit dealers usually don't object. Free publicity is free publicity!

I agree, that must have been some kind of special check Igor received! Probably had Brinks make the delivery! Can you imagine trusting something like that in the mail system!???

Yes, imagine, it got lost in the mail

Nah, the buyer probably flew over to pick up the stuff. Maybe even with his own jet

[NavyFCO]

Like it seems the buyer took a few other goodies as well, like the Kutuzov 1st class, the Nakhimov 2nd class and the Uhsakov 2nd class. What a package!

Or......

The consignor decided not to sell the pieces. Or perhaps Igor decided to take them down to list them up later if he has heard of a potential raise in prices. All sorts of possibilities!

Chances are though that they were sold to a deep-pocketed Russian. In the cloth world, we've encountered some of these guys. The head of one of Russia's largest oil firms is a big-time uniform collector and has no problem dropping lots and lots and lots of money on what he wants. He's willing to drop more on a single uniform that he wants than I make in an entire year! Kind of tough to be in competition with people like that!

Dave

[Stogieman]

Well, there's been some pretty sweet pieces that have dropped off his site recently. He had a spectacular OGPW1, T1V2 group that had an Honored NKVD Worker Badge, etc., etc. as well, with documents. That's gone now too.

[Gerd Becker]

Or......

The consignor decided not to sell the pieces. Or perhaps Igor decided to take them down to list them up later if he has heard of a potential raise in prices. All sorts of possibilities!

Chances are though that they were sold to a deep-pocketed Russian. In the cloth world, we've encountered some of these guys. The head of one of Russia's largest oil firms is a big-time uniform collector and has no problem dropping lots and lots and lots of money on what he wants. He's willing to drop more on a single uniform that he wants than I make in an entire year! Kind of tough to be in competition with people like that!

Dave

Good points, Dave. I don?t know, if these were his or if he had them on consignement.

Gerd

[HuliganRS]

From a good source:

These pieces were on consignment and were returned to the owner.

My source is 99% sure.

Rusty.

[NavyFCO]

These pieces were on consignment and were returned to the owner.

That's 99% completely believeable (I think 100%) That's the problem with dropping lots of money on rare awards... the market to resell them becomes very, very thin...

Dave

[Stogieman]

Well, if that's the case.... he did not give Igor very much time to sell the pieces......

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

Let me make sure that I am understanding this situation correctly. It appears, or is possible, that this Lenin Order and some other pieces listed on Igor?s website were, in fact, on consignment. As such the prices set on these pieces were set by the consignor (plus, no doubt, a commission) and not by Igor.

Second is just a comment. If Dave?s observation ?That's the problem with dropping lots of money on rare awards... the market to resell them becomes very, very thin...? - holds, then I say good! Hopefully this will deter speculators and ?investors? to the benefit of the collecting community.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[Chris S]

From a good source:

These pieces were on consignment and were returned to the owner.

My source is 99% sure.

Rusty.

That does not make sense...

Chris

[HuliganRS]

Chris,

Why not?