Soviet Full Cavaliers of the Order of Glory - Present Day Market Realities

[USSR]

$3500... that's way too much even for an interesting group like this IMHO

[slava1stclass]

On ‎9‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 15:51, slava1stclass said:

Gents,

  Currently available on the well-known auction site for a buy-it-now price of $3,500.00.  The orders booklet and OGII only first surfaced at auction in Ukraine a couple of years back.  Since then, the "OGIII" has now suddenly appeared.  While I'm confident in the OGII's and orders booklet's authenticity, I can't say the same for the OGIII based on the images below.  While the OGIII's "serial number" matches that awarded to the Full Cavalier in question, the likelihood of the original OGIII being found and then reunited with the OGII and orders booklet seems remote at best.  The seller is in Latvia and has a solid eBay reputation.

  In any event, this an interesting offering as the Full Cavalier in question initially served in an airborne unit and later transitioned to duties as an aerial gunner/radio operator in an IL-2 Shturmovik ground-attack aircraft.  His OGIII recommendation included credit for shooting down a German aircraft.  His IL-2 pilot would go on to earn the HSU title.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Gents,

  With no takers thus far, he dropped his BIN price to $2,999.00.

Regards,

slava1stclass

[slava1stclass]

On ‎10‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 06:54, slava1stclass said:

Gents,

  With no takers thus far, he dropped his BIN price to $2,999.00.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Gents,

  Just six days later, the price has dropped another $500.00.  The current BIN price is set at $2,499.00.

Regards,

slava1stclass

 

[slava1stclass]

On ‎10‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 18:30, slava1stclass said:

Gents,

  Just six days later, the price has dropped another $500.00.  The current BIN price is set at $2,499.00.

Regards,

slava1stclass

 

Gents,

  He's lowered the price once again by $500.00.  The current BIN price is set at $1,999.00.  You have to give him credit for recognizing the realties of today's market.  

  Considering these two OGs were to a Full Cavalier who was an Il-2 Shturmovik aerial gunner-radio operator, it's starting to look tempting.

Regards,

slava1stclass

[slava1stclass]

Gents,

  A partial Full Cavalier set (the OGII went missing) with Full Cavalier booklet that was available in the former Soyuz over the past few months.  The asking price that was being kicked around was $10,000.00.

Regards,

slava1stclass

[slava1stclass]

On ‎11‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 20:09, slava1stclass said:

Gents,

  He's lowered the price once again by $500.00.  The current BIN price is set at $1,999.00.  You have to give him credit for recognizing the realties of today's market.  

  Considering these two OGs were to a Full Cavalier who was an Il-2 Shturmovik aerial gunner-radio operator, it's starting to look tempting.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Gents,

  A month on and the group is still available.  There have been no subsequent price reductions although the seller will entertain best offers.  None has been made to date.

Regards,

slava1stclass  

 

[slava1stclass]

Gents,

  A hybrid Category I Full Cavalier set (the Full Cavalier booklet has a military commissariat stamp on the cavalier's photo, but lacks the handwritten date of issue) is being offered at the XLI New York Sale Auction on January 12, 2017.  The opening bid is $10,000.00. 

  It, as well as other Soviet-related items up for auction, may be found at this link:  http://www.dmitrymarkov.com/dm/pics/nysale41-medals.pdf

Regards,

slava1stclass

[paul wood]

Given the present moribund state of the market which makes a dodo seem positively oozing with life. He will need a miracle of titanic scale to shift much of the stuff

Paul

[Egorka]

Or one could put it even simpler: he is a notch ready...

[USSR]

On 9-12-2016 at 14:56, paul wood said:

Given the present moribund state of the market which makes a dodo seem positively oozing with life. He will need a miracle of titanic scale to shift much of the stuff

Paul

Don't you worry, this lot will sell for the price mentioned without a problem. Believe me... ;-) 

Last January he sold a single undocumented OG1 for $7750 so $10k for this set will be easy to accomplish. 

Btw, only 5 out of the 30 Soviet awards didn't sell for the estimated price last time so I really don't see your negative stance in this matter. The only substantial decline in prices is that of common Red Banners. But these were ridiculously overpriced 8 years ago.

Edited December 15, 2016 by USSR

[slava1stclass]

1 hour ago, USSR said:

Don't you worry, this lot will sell for the price mentioned without a problem. Believe me... ;-) 

Last January he sold a single undocumented OG1 for $7750 so $10k for this set will be easy to accomplish. 

Btw, only 5 out of the 30 Soviet awards didn't sell for the estimated price last time so I really don't see your negative stance in this matter. The only substantial decline in prices is that of common Red Banners. But these were ridiculously overpriced 8 years ago.

 

On ‎6‎/‎27‎/‎2016 at 07:59, slava1stclass said:

Gents,

   Said prices tend to range from $12,500.00 to $18,000.00 depending on the orders' condition and any accompanying documentation; the point of sale i.e., in the former Soyuz or in the West; and the Full Cavalier's combat pedigree which is a combination of the awardee's military occupational specialty, Guards status and the actual OGI award recommendation write up.  As an example, a knock-you-off-your-feet OGI recommendation that is very fact filled and descriptive - regardless of MOS, Guards status or location of cited action - will always command a premium as will Full Cavalier sets whose OGI is based on a late-war descriptive recommendation for action in Koenigsberg or Berlin. 

Regards,

slava1stclass

Gents,

  As noted in my above post, a variety of factors can influence the ultimate sale price. 

  The lot in question in the upcoming auction is to a Full Cavalier whose OGI recommendation was for action in the heart of Berlin in late April 1945 as a 120mm mortar crew commander.  He was assigned to a 3rd Shock Army Rifle Regiment/Division that played a key role in seizing the Kroll Opera House during the final assault on the Reichstag.  The opera house was located directly across from the Reichstag on the western side of Koenigsplatz.  

  That said, it will be interesting to see how this Full Cavalier set fares.

Regards,

slava1stclass

[Christian Zulus]

Gentlemen,

I guess, there had been far too many OGI for mortar crew commanders. If the recipient would have been a machine gun squad leader or a sniper, it might boost the market value. A mortar is an INDIRECT weapon. The 120mm Soviet mortar model 1943 had a minimal range of 460m and a maximal range of 5.700m. You see, a mortar man is much more seperated from the enemy, than a machine gunner, rifle man or a sniper. The history of market prices for full cavalier sets showed, that mortar men had been usually located in the lower half.

Also the actions for the OGIII & OGII are of importance. The ideal case for a full cavalier set is always, when the recipient got his 3 OG at decisive battles during main operations, i.e.: Crimea - Bagration - Berlin.

Kind regards

Christian

[slava1stclass]

56 minutes ago, Christian Zulus said:

Gentlemen,

I guess, there had been far too many OGI for mortar crew commanders. If the recipient would have been a machine gun squad leader or a sniper, it might boost the market value. A mortar is an INDIRECT weapon. The 120mm Soviet mortar model 1943 had a minimal range of 460m and a maximal range of 5.700m. You see, a mortar man is much more seperated from the enemy, than a machine gunner, rifle man or a sniper. The history of market prices for full cavalier sets showed, that mortar men had been usually located in the lower half.

Also the actions for the OGIII & OGII are of importance. The ideal case for a full cavalier set is always, when the recipient got his 3 OG at decisive battles during main operations, i.e.: Crimea - Bagration - Berlin.

Kind regards

Christian

Gents,

  Christian is correct in stating that more Full Cavaliers came from the ranks of mortar crewmen than those who were machine gunners or snipers.  I cannot comment, however, on whether mortar-related Full Cavalier sets have traditionally drawn lower prices.  I would be interested in seeing examples that support the claim.

  Additionally, the overwhelming majority of Full Cavalier sets come nowhere close to having each of their OGs resulting from three distinct bell-ringer battles or operations.  Far from it.  A set that includes at least one of the OGs (especially the OGI) connected to a Sevastopol, Breslau, Koenigsberg, Berlin, Budapest or Vienna action for example, will always command a premium in my view.  

  The role this Full Cavalier's Rifle Regiment and Division played in the final assault on Berlin and capture of the Reichstag - of which he played a part - is by far the most critical element contributing to this set's value and ultimate sale price. 

Regards,

slava1stclass

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Slava1stclass,

another fact is, that - in relation - many more mortar crews survived the war, than machine gun squads, rifle men or snipers. Why? Mortar crews did their job - specially teams with larger calibre mortars, as in in the case with the set Markov offers - quite behind the FEBA - forward edge of battle aera. Machine gun squads, rifle men or snipers ARE the forward edge of battle aera. Due to the fact, that the OG is NOT a posthumous award, as the HSU can be, this led to the inflation of mortar-crew-cavaliers of OG. And: In the statutes of the OG mortar crews are specially mentioned! Well, it might be too overly subtle, to regard the OG as an award for mortar crews and real heros ;-)

Another point: As with the HSU at the crossing of Dnepr, there had been a huge inflation of OGs in the case of the capture of Berlin. Dnepr & Berlin: Stalin needed a very special motivation for his Red Army soldiers! So, most full cavalier sets resulted from the capture of Berlin. In Markov's offer only the fact of Kroll Oper adds value and not Berlin generally!

Generally: The quality of the 3 heroic actions in spring/summer 1944 for becoming a full cavalier are rather different, than most the herosim documented for the "Berlin-Inflation". As OGs, which resulted from bell-ringer battles or operations, are more common for 1944, than 1945.

Anyhow, a full cavalier set of the OG has to rank ABOVE a HSU, due to 2 facts: It is an authentic FEBA-award (besides of mortar crews ...) and you have to show (and survive) 3 heroic deeds for becoming a full cavalier!

In comparison to all the numerous Berlin-mortar-OGI the citations of a rather typical spring/summer-1944-cavalier-set of sgt. Gnitienko, which I keep in my collection.

Kind regards

Christian

 

 

[slava1stclass]

Gents,

  A few comments:

1) "another fact is, that - in relation - many more mortar crews survived the war, than machine gun squads, rifle men or snipers."  Mortarmen clearly operated at the tactical level and were exposed to just as many dangers as their combat arms brethren.  To state a greater number of mortarmen survived the war without furnishing facts to substantiate said claim is spurious at best.  Many Full Cavaliers who were mortarmen were organically assigned to the rifle regiments they supported and not to Mortar or Artillery-Mortar Regiments.  Mortarman serving as forward observers in the infantry's ranks were clearly operating in the FEBA as were the mortarmen themselves.  As a group, riflemen, submachine gunners and snipers produced more Full Cavaliers than mortarmen. 

2) "Due to the fact, that the OG is NOT a posthumous award..."  The Order of Glory was in fact awarded posthumously either for being killed in the cited action/subsequent combat or succumbing to one's combat wounds before the award was formally approved in Moscow or could be presented to the recipient if already approved.  Sniper Sergeant Major Nina Petrova is but one such posthumous example.  While the decoration itself was not presented, the OGI award approval and Full Cavalier status were conveyed in posthumous cases  

3) "So, most full cavalier sets resulted from the capture of Berlin."  Untrue.  Full Cavaliers resulting from the assault on Berlin proper and its near approaches amounted to roughly 10% of all Full Cavalier awards. 

4) "Generally: The quality of the 3 heroic actions in spring/summer 1944 for becoming a full cavalier are rather different..."  Agree.  Christian's Gnitienko Full Cavalier set is far more representative of a typical Full Cavalier set - regardless of at what point during the war it was awarded.  As I've stated previously in this thread, to own any Full Cavalier set places one in a very exclusive club.  Congrats Christian!

5) "Anyhow, a full cavalier set of the OG has to rank ABOVE a HSU, due to 2 facts: It is an authentic FEBA-award (besides of mortar crews ...) and you have to show (and survive) 3 heroic deeds for becoming a full cavalier!"  Clearly, there are many elements of truth to make this case.  As Christian notes, it was a purely tactical-level combat valor award.  Full Cavaliers were on par with HSUs when it came to status and privileges in Soviet society.  More importantly, there were far, far fewer Full Cavaliers than HSUs.  Taken together, I'd select a Full Cavalier set over a HSU any day.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Edited December 17, 2016 by slava1stclass

[paul wood]

18 hours ago, USSR said:

Don't you worry, this lot will sell for the price mentioned without a problem. Believe me... ;-) 

Last January he sold a single undocumented OG1 for $7750 so $10k for this set will be easy to accomplish. 

Btw, only 5 out of the 30 Soviet awards didn't sell for the estimated price last time so I really don't see your negative stance in this matter. The only substantial decline in prices is that of common Red Banners. But these were ridiculously overpriced 8 years ago.

The Soviet in the Morton and Eden sale on 1 December was pretty well an unmitigated disaster with very little selling, so possibly if what you say is true the market is only dead in England.

 

Paul

[Ferdinand]

I certainly wouldn't call it an unmitigated disaster, their estimates were simply way too high. A late wartime OPW2 is just not worth £180-240 (including the buyer's premium), but barely half that. The few lots that did sell show that the results were not bad at all. The late-war ORB for instance sold for £180, which is the same it would have sold for anywhere else, and the OG3+MC set went for a very respectable £192.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Ferdinand

[USSR]

I agree. As a mater of fact I wantend to place a bid on the Nevsky suspension but I was too late. All other items were way too expensive IMHO. The HSU went for £5000 If I'm not misstaken. Taken the 20% buyers premium into account thats $7500... not bad 

Edited December 17, 2016 by USSR

[Egorka]

2 hours ago, USSR said:

The HSU went for £5000 If I'm not misstaken. Taken the 20% buyers premium into account thats $7500... not bad 

 In what universe does it amount to 7500?  

[USSR]

In this universe ;-) 

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Slava1stclass,

1) Correct for usual mortar crews, but the Markov-set deals with a commander of a heavy 120mm mortar crew, with a minmum range of 460m! Usually such heavy mortars are located just behind the FEBA.

2) Also correct, but a HSU was a more common a posthumous award, than an OGI. Up to now, it was not possible, to bestow outstanding sniper Roza Shanina (picture) with a well deserved OGI posthumously :-( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roza_Shanina

3) "Berlin Operation" included the fronts of Konev & Zhukov and ranges from Küstrin, Seelower Höhen, Kessel von Halbe to Potsdam. Also the quoted 10% might be more, than OGI for Crimea or "Operation Bagration".

4) Many thanks for your congratulations :-)

5) Correct :-)

Kind regards

Christian

[Egorka]

2 hours ago, USSR said:

In this universe ;-) 

OK. Point taken.

 

[Bill Garvy]

duplicate post, please delete...

 

 

Edited December 23, 2016 by Bill Garvy

[slava1stclass]

On ‎12‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 07:54, slava1stclass said:

Gents,

  A hybrid Category I Full Cavalier set (the Full Cavalier booklet has a military commissariat stamp on the cavalier's photo, but lacks the handwritten date of issue) is being offered at the XLI New York Sale Auction on January 12, 2017.  The opening bid is $10,000.00. 

  It, as well as other Soviet-related items up for auction, may be found at this link:  http://www.dmitrymarkov.com/dm/pics/nysale41-medals.pdf

Regards,

slava1stclass

 

5 minutes ago, Bill Garvy said:

Here is a full Order of Glory Cavalier set at auction, New York Sale, January 17th, 2017, from the current catalogue...

Bill,

  Thank you.  This is the set I referenced in my December 9, 2016, post above.

Regards,

slava1stclass

[slava1stclass]

On ‎9‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 15:51, slava1stclass said:

Gents,

  Currently available on the well-known auction site for a buy-it-now price of $3,500.00. 

  This an interesting offering as the Full Cavalier in question initially served in an airborne unit and later transitioned to duties as an aerial gunner/radio operator in an IL-2 Shturmovik ground attack aircraft.  His OGIII recommendation included credit for shooting down a German aircraft.  His IL-2 pilot would go on to earn the HSU title.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Gents,

  The BIN price was lowered to $1,599.00 earlier today.

Regards,

slava1stclass