Soviet Full Cavaliers of the Order of Glory - Present Day Market Realities

[Gerd Becker]

Slava,

lets wait and see, if the prices really can keep up this level. They probably will, but you never know. And yes, there are different groups of collectors. With my financial means i can buy small groups and a few low-end orders, but if an OGPW 2nd class costs 350 Dollar and a simple Red Star goes for 75 Dollar, then we are not far from the point, when collectors like me are only able to collect Jubilee Medals or a Campaign Medal once in a while. You can imagine, how many will be very unhappy with that and change the collection field. I have myself often thought about to stop with soviet, although i am able to spend 300-400 Dollar a month for the collection and i don?t consider that sparse and i know a lot of other collectors who think like me and have similar budgets or less.

Christian, if they like it in Kitzb?hel, then they want to spend more time there.

Its simple: More nights in Kitzb?hel = Less Glory Trios

regards,

Gerd

[NavyFCO]

I was thinking this morning about the "oligarchs" to whom we ascribe the raise in prices on high-end Soviet awards, like this latest Cavalier group. What I find very curious is that these expensive groups will sit for sale for a long time with the two "big" dealers (one US, one in Europe) that I know of before being bought.

With that said, if you had unlimited funds (like the oligarchs) and you decided to start collecting Soviet awards, would you not simply buy everything that was offered for sale, until your collecting interests were satisified?

I have sold items (mostly high-end uniforms) to "big money" collectors before on several occasions and they typically buy whatever I have, and whatever else I can find from them - as well as anything my friends want to sell! Money to them isn't a factor - their interests are in assembling the largest collection possible. In the same way, as I have sold off my Soviet collection, I have re-invested the money in other interests, buying up considerable amounts of the other items simply because I had the money to do so and bought some really great stuff (so far).

So I wonder if the prices might not be more blamed on the rising Russian middle class rather than the rich oligarchs? While I know of at least one oligarch collector by name (I haven't dealt with him before, but I know what he collects, and it's cloth) I am not sure all how many collect (or even invest) when we have these kinds of groups languishing months on end before being purchased.

Just some food for thought...

Dave

[Bob]

All this talk about the oligarchs... honestly, there surely aren't THAT many oligarchs around (hence the phrase oligarch!) and do we really believe they get satisfaction from having their "fifteenth" hero star?

I think not.

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Dave,

dear Bob,

I already mentioned in post #24, that I don't think that our "Oligarchs" are buying our Soviet Orders:

The clerks & assistents of these oligarchs are earning a fortune in sallery and I think, that these are the people, who buy Soviet high-end awards, like a Glory Trio, HSU-set, etc. These folks are very well educated and know the Russian history.

It's simply the new emerging upper-middle-class in Russia . The better the economy is running in Russia, the more these folks will get and the demand for interesting Soviet Awards will grow constantly.

Lecture in economics: The effective market price = meeting point of supply & demand .

Best regards

Christian

Edited May 28, 2007 by Christian Zulus

[Christian Zulus]

All this talk about the oligarchs... honestly, there surely aren't THAT many oligarchs around (hence the phrase oligarch!) and do we really believe they get satisfaction from having their "fifteenth" hero star?

I think not.

Dear Bob,

your are right , but I have heard of an aristocrat in Britain - his name should be Ashcan or Ashtray or something similar -, who has much more than 15 VCs in his collection .

BTW: A VC is maybe 100 times more expensive at the market, than a HSU and this guy collects, collects and collects .

We are living in a strange world ...

Best regards

Christian

[NavyFCO]

All this talk about the oligarchs... honestly, there surely aren't THAT many oligarchs around (hence the phrase oligarch!) and do we really believe they get satisfaction from having their "fifteenth" hero star?

I think not.

I don't know... I would think that if I had the money I would buy all the XXX (you insert what it is) groups that I was interested in.

I started collecting WW1 uniforms in March. Am I content now that I have 28 of them? Of course not. Will I be content with 50? 100? 200?????? If I was ever content with something, there would be no point in collecting it. If I were a billionaire and I liked HSU groups, I would buy all that came on the market. I know one US collector that has (had?) over 30 HSU groups. Was (is?) he tired of them? Doubt it. Same with an overseas (non-Russian) collector I know with 15 HSU groups and 15 Cavalier groups.... the only reason he's no longer buying is that the price has gone through the roof on what he used to buy (he's not an oligarch).

But this gets back to the fact that I don't think the oligarchs are the only ones buying these, otherwise they wouldn't be sitting on Igor's website for so long. I know with various WW1 units that I am interested in, I buy the uniforms, no matter the price, as soon as they are listed on dealer's websites. They might sit there for a while otherwise, but not with me as a buyer.

Like I said before, I do know of some oligarchs that collect (one was in competition with a friend over a uniform - my friend lost, of course!) but I agree with all that it's Russians with money in the middle class who enjoy the medals (and hopefully the history) that are the new collectors. If the "new" collectors (as they are "new" money) enjoy the history as much as we do (and I know some of them that I know do) then I have no problem with them buying everything back. After all, this is THEIR heritage, as much as I think the stuff is really cool (and have thought for many many years!)

Christian: You are thinking of Lord Ashcroft in England who buys all of the Victoria Crosses. Buying one of those makes even the price of a Suvorov 1st look like pocket money!!!!

Dave

[Bryan]

Same with an overseas (non-Russian) collector I know with 15 HSU groups and 15 Cavalier groups.... the only reason he's no longer buying is that the price has gone through the roof on what he used to buy (he's not an oligarch).

Is he slava1stclass?

[NavyFCO]

Is he slava1stclass?

Guess again!

[NavyFCO]

Is he slava1stclass?

With that thought....... slava1stclass: how many Cavalier groups do you own? Could you post what you have over in the researched section? I'm sure all of us would like to see the gems in your collection.

Dave

[Bryan]

With that thought....... slava1stclass: how many Cavalier groups do you own? Could you post what you have over in the researched section? I'm sure all of us would like to see the gems in your collection.

I think he is waiting to publish his book first.

[slava1stclass]

To all:

The ranking in post # 1 above remains valid as of 29 May 2007.

Regards,

slava1stclass

[slava1stclass]

To all:

A nice example of a hybrid Category 2 (see post # 1 above) Full Cavalier booklet. It is classified as a hybrid since it lacks the date of issue, but displays the issuing military commissariat's official stamp.

Regards,

slava1stclass

[Christian Zulus]

A nice example of a hybrid Category 2 (see post # 1 above) Full Cavalier booklet. It is classified as a hybrid since it lacks the date of issue, but displays the issuing military commissariat's official stamp.

Dear "slava1stclass",

many thanks for sharing that booklet with us .

Well, to be scientific from the phaleristic viewpoint, you will have to create a complete new category for that grade of booklet = everything, except the date of issue.

That booklet is neither Category 1, nor Category 2 of a Full Cavalier booklet .

For my taste the term "hybrid" doesen't sound sooooo phaleristic - reminds me more on motoring or biology .

Maybe: Category 1,5 ?

Best regards

Christian

BTW: What about a Category 1 Full Cavalier Set + full research (special award card, award card + all citations and recommendations). Might such a set run under Category 1+ ? Many thanks for your expertise .

[slava1stclass]

To all:

Now we're talking! IM has found his groove thing once again! A wonderful, documented/researched Category 1 Full Cavalier set. All for the sweet price of $21,000.00. I like it.

http://www.collectrussia.com/DISPITEM.HTM?ITEM=17870

Regards,

slava1stclass

[Ed_Haynes]

Yowie! That's IT!!!

[Christian Zulus]

Vasiliy Odnorogov, full Cavalier of the Order of Glory - set of the 1st category

Dear "slava1stclass",

many thanks for posting that amazing new offer from Igor's website just in "Echtzeit" .

It doesen't happen too frequently, to see a category-1-set at the market.

Well, the price tag - just below EUR 15.000,- - is really sweet and I think, rather moderate for such a set of the 1st category .

What's interesting - besides the very "young" photograph - is, that the 3 Orders of Glory look somehow cleaned & polished. 2cl & 3cl look like the have some sort of "silver wash" on them and the gold plating of the 2cl seems to be renewed. No patina at all .

What's the sense of putting a photograph as a young man into a veterans Cavalier-ID-booklet, which is used almost everyday for getting the numerous benefits of a Cavalier ?

Due to the fact, that Igor's Glory-set will be sold within short time, I post some scans of this set here.

Best regards

Christian

[Christian Zulus]

[Christian Zulus]

Well, the Glory 1cl has some nicks, but our hero got his order in 1945 and not in 1980 .

[slava1stclass]

To all:

Now we're talking! IM has found his groove thing once again! A wonderful, documented/researched Category 1 Full Cavalier set. All for the sweet price of $21,000.00. I like it.

http://www.collectrussia.com/DISPITEM.HTM?ITEM=17870

Regards,

slava1stclass

To all:

Say bye-bye. It's gone.

Regards,

slava1stclass

[Christian Zulus]

To all:

Say bye-bye. It's gone.

Regards,

slava1stclass

At least, I saved some scans for GMIC ...

Well, Igor sells, very, very, very fast : The HSU-group, RB-group and the cheaper Admiral's-group are already sold .

Congratulations to Igor .

Best regards

Christian

[new world]

Sometimes Igor posts pics of the items that have been already sold.

It's some creative marketing on his side, after all if we can't afford to buy from his site, at least we keep coming back to drool over some nice groups

William

[Christian Zulus]

Sometimes Igor posts pics of the items that have been already sold.

It's some creative marketing on his side, after all if we can't afford to buy from his site, at least we keep coming back to drool over some nice groups

William

Dear William,

but at least he sells (or sold ) such extraordinary groups - and someone has to money to by them ...

Best regards

Christian

[slava1stclass]

Dear William,

but at least he sells (or sold ) such extraordinary groups - and someone has to money to by them ...

Best regards

Christian

To all:

Now just who could that be? I wonder.

Regards,

slava1stclass

[new world]

To all:

Now just who could that be? I wonder.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Most likely that would be someone in Russia...

William

[Christian Zulus]

Most likely that would be someone in Russia...

William

... and I don't think, that the happy buyer is among our GMIC-members .

Best regards

Christian