Prussia William II in the Franco-Prussian War

[filfoster]

Wilhelm II was made an officer in 1869, when he was 10 years old. He obviously did not actually serve in any military capacity but would he have been entitled to wear the War Commemorative Medal of 1870-71 non-combatant (steel) version by virtue of his commission and royal status? Did he wear it? The photos are difficult to decipher.

[filfoster]

His early medal bars have many 'round' medals and few crosses, so I am guessing he wore it. Can anyone find a good photo?

This would indicate as a commissioned officer, he would have been authorized the non-combatant medal on a combatant ribbon:

http://antique-photos.com/en/awardsdatabase/german-empire/prussia/300-commemorative-medal-for-1870-1871-military-campaigns.html

Edited May 14, 2014 by filfoster

[saschaw]

On the good quality photo I've seen, he didn't wear it, so I don't think he ever received it.

Maybe his "service" wasn't real enough to be taken into account...

[filfoster]

On the good quality photo I've seen, he didn't wear it, so I don't think he ever received it.

Maybe his "service" wasn't real enough to be taken into account...

Yes, the photos and painted portraits do not appear to show it. Does anyone know what medals he did wear prior to WW1?

[saschaw]

That must be a very long list. He didn't have just one medal bar, but several different ones.

Depending on which era the photo was taken, or depending on what uniform he wore, the awards changed

E. g. on a British uniform he wore other awards than on a Spanish, or Austrian one... not only in regards to neck crosses and breast stars, but also to medal bars!

[P.F.]

Here is a portrait and also a photograph of the Kaiser circa 1888.

The fourth medal appears to be on the Hohenzollern House ribbon. What would that be? Something commemorative?

[filfoster]

Here is a portrait and also a photograph of the Kaiser circa 1888.

The fourth medal appears to be on the Hohenzollern House ribbon. What would that be? Something commemorative?

Thanks for these photos. They show good representations of his pre-war medal bars. Not sure what commemorative Hohenzollern medals would have been issued for the appropriate time period. His grandfather wore one for aid in the 1848-49 'troubles', but that would not be appropriate for Willy II.

Edited January 5, 2015 by filfoster

[P.F.]

I agree, that medal would not have been appropriate but I wonder would he have had something relating to his father's wedding anniversary? He wears the golden wedding anniversary medal of his grandfather (Wilhelm I) AFTER this mystery medal so perhaps not, but it is something commemorative I believe and I am almost certain the ribbon is Hohenzollern.

Anyone have an idea what it might be?

[dond]

Did Kaiser Wilhelm or Kaiser Frederick III wear it?

[filfoster]

OK, so we have:

1. Red Eagle 3rd, w/o swords

2. Crown Order 3rd, w/o swords

3. Hohenzollern Houshold Order 3rd w/o swords

4. ?

5. Some Hohenzollern commemorative medal

6. Centenary Medal

Edited January 14, 2015 by filfoster

[filfoster]

OK, so we have:

1. Red Eagle 3rd, w/o swords

2. Crown Order 3rd, w/o swords

3. Hohenzollern Houshold Order 3rd w/o swords

4. ?

5. Some Hohenzollern commemorative medal

6. Centenary Medal

My bad: the #6 medal is not the 'Centenary medal' but perhaps as PF suggests, the Golden Wedding anniversary commemorative medal for Willy I.  I have not seen this medal before; does anyone have a photo?

Edited January 16, 2015 by filfoster

[P.F.]

No. 6 is definitely not the Centenary Medal. Those photos are circa 1888, before the Centenary Medal was created (1897).

 

Here is what I think the medals could be:

 

1. Red Eagle 3rd, w/o swords

2. Crown Order 3rd, w/o swords

3. Hohenzollern Houshold Order 3rd w/o swords

4. Hohenzollern Commemorative  Medal/Prussian Regimental Medal???

5. Golden Wedding Medal, Wilhelm I

6. English Queen Victoria Jubilee Medal (1887)???

Edited January 17, 2015 by P.F.

[Daniel Krause]

Willy II did NOT wear any 1870 medal. He was too young to serve as an active soldier in this war.

The Prussian princes got a theoretical commission as 10 year old boys but started to serve as "real" Officer atr the age of 18.

 

The number 4 medal in Pierce´ pics is very interesting and I am already looking forward to hot discussions.

Sascha W. pointed me already to that medal a year ago.

In my opinion it is a quite odd award. From different pics we can say that this is the 1863 napoleonic wars commemorative medal, but worn on the Hohenzollern ribbon.

As far as we can say now, there were at least 4-5 Prussian princes wearing this medal, Willy 2 and Fritz 3 among them.

The medal bar of Prince Albrecht is in the DHM in Berlin - showing this comm. medal on the HOH ribbon!

I think, Willy 1 issued this medal to all veterans of the 1813-15 wars and most likely awarded this medal on the Hohenzollern Ribbon to the Princes of the royal house who maybe took part in the celebrations.

 

Lots of greetings

Daniel

[filfoster]

No. 6 is definitely not the Centenary Medal. Those photos are circa 1888, before the Centenary Medal was created (1897).

 

Here is what I think the medals could be:

 

1. Red Eagle 3rd, w/o swords

2. Crown Order 3rd, w/o swords

3. Hohenzollern Houshold Order 3rd w/o swords

4. Hohenzollern Commemorative  Medal/Prussian Regimental Medal???

5. Golden Wedding Medal, Wilhelm I

6. English Queen Victoria Jubilee Medal (1887)???

 

 

The guess as to #6 is plausible, since this was well before the Great War and Willy II was a grandson of Victoria and would likely have been given some English medals, particularly a Jubilee medal.  Good guess.  Wish we could see the details. Does the ribbon look right?

Edited January 20, 2015 by filfoster

[filfoster]

Willy II did NOT wear any 1870 medal. He was too young to serve as an active soldier in this war.

The Prussian princes got a theoretical commission as 10 year old boys but started to serve as "real" Officer atr the age of 18.

 

The number 4 medal in Pierce´ pics is very interesting and I am already looking forward to hot discussions.

Sascha W. pointed me already to that medal a year ago.

In my opinion it is a quite odd award. From different pics we can say that this is the 1863 napoleonic wars commemorative medal, but worn on the Hohenzollern ribbon.

As far as we can say now, there were at least 4-5 Prussian princes wearing this medal, Willy 2 and Fritz 3 among them.

The medal bar of Prince Albrecht is in the DHM in Berlin - showing this comm. medal on the HOH ribbon!

I think, Willy 1 issued this medal to all veterans of the 1813-15 wars and most likely awarded this medal on the Hohenzollern Ribbon to the Princes of the royal house who maybe took part in the celebrations.

 

Lots of greetings

Daniel

Interesting guess.  This may be the medal, but I'd point out it makes less sense to wear this 1863 commemorative medal on a Hohenzollern ribbon than the 1870 medal since Willy II was at least nominally a commissioned officer at the time and might have been given the non combatant medal to wear.

Daniel's reference to Prince Albrecht's 1813-1814-1815 -1863 commemorative medal on the HOH ribbon is a strong bit of evidence in support of this, however and I'm inclined to go with that. A tangible example is hard to refute.

Edited January 21, 2015 by filfoster

[P.F.]

It seems that Wilhelm II was not entitled to the 1870 Commemorative Medal, non-combatant or otherwise I guess? But if given permission to wear the 1863 Napoleonic Wars Commemorative Medal, by Kaiser Wilhelm I, then who could argue.

 

This photo may help with our discussion, regarding the actual medals worn here. Is No. 4 the 1863 Napoleonic Wars Commemorative Medal?

 

Best

Pierce

[filfoster]

It seems that Wilhelm II was not entitled to the 1870 Commemorative Medal, non-combatant or otherwise I guess? But if given permission to wear the 1863 Napoleonic Wars Commemorative Medal, by Kaiser Wilhelm I, then who could argue.

 

This photo may help with our discussion, regarding the actual medals worn here. Is No. 4 the 1863 Napoleonic Wars Commemorative Medal?

 

Best

Pierce

 Yes, this enlargement is good enough to get my vote for that.

 

It is curious that the #5 Willy I Golden Wedding medal, which would have that surmounting imperial crown, does not have the enameled circumference band. But, assuming that it is, what is the last medal?  The bust is facing the correct direction for a Victoria-era British medal.

Edited January 22, 2015 by filfoster

[P.F.]

Yes the lack of enamel on the Wedding Medal is strange but I think it has that in other, later photographs.

 

I am thinking the last medal is the Queen Victoria Jubilee Medal (1887). What do others think?

[filfoster]

Yes the lack of enamel on the Wedding Medal is strange but I think it has that in other, later photographs.

 

I am thinking the last medal is the Queen Victoria Jubilee Medal (1887). What do others think?

That makes sense.  It is interesting that this medal is not easy to find with a ribbon, on a regular 'Google' search.

Edited January 26, 2015 by filfoster

[P.F.]

That makes sense.  It is interesting that this medal is not easy to find with a ribbon, on a regular 'Google' search.

 

Here you go!

[filfoster]

So now we have:

1. Red Eagle 3rd w/o swords;

2. Crown Order 3rd, w/o swords;

3. Hohenzollern House Order 3rd, w/o swords;

4. Prussian1813-14-15-1863 medal on Hohenzollern ribbon;

5. Willy I Golden Wedding anniversary medal (Good luck finding this ribbon)

6. Queen Victoria 1887 Golden Jubilee medal

 

This looks right to me, no matter how odd the #4 medal is, since there is documented precedence for it.

[filfoster]

OK, thanks to all who posted to this thread.  I am going to reproduce this bar for a display so my final take on it is:

 

1. Red Eagle 3rd, w/o swords

2. Crown Order 3rd, w/o swords

3. Hohenzollern Houshold Order 3rd w/o swords

4. Prussian 1813-14-15-1863 Napoleonic wars Commemorative Medal on Hohenzollern ribbon

5. Golden Wedding Medal, Wilhelm I with enameled circumference

6. English Queen Victoria Jubilee Medal (1887) on Llloyd's 1883/1913 type ribbon

 

The ribbon has been a challenge to run down for #5 and #6.

Edited February 20, 2015 by filfoster

[P.F.]

Best of luck finding those ribbons.

[filfoster]

Best of luck finding those ribbons.

The Lloyds Meritorious Service medal ribbon for 1893 and 1913 look like the ribbon for the Victoria Jubilee medal but the Golden Wedding anniversay medal ribbon will be very difficult. I have been told by a German supplier that it's available but I don't have it yet.

[P.F.]

Is there any record of Wilhelm II armed service rank promotions?