Medal bar to a German medic in Ottoman service?

[Trajan]

Well, that's what I think it is! A rather mysterious piece bought in Ankara but with no background story

It certainly relates to Prussian service under the Ottoman Empire but with with a few oddities - e.g., why a second Prussian Rotkreuzmedaille in zinc where a second class silver should be?  I suspect to replace a silver that was lost... And the back-to-front VdK für Kriegshilfe next to the EK? Well, I have seen that in bars before. But why a Bavarian Ludwig Kreuz (non-magnetic) at the end for a Prussian? I have no problems with the unofficial veterans Verein medal at the very end as I have seen photographs of guys in the 3R Wehrmacht wearing these alongside their WW1 medals and HKreuz, despite what the 1935 rules said!

A 'Combatants' HK with Red Cross medals would certainly seem odd(!) - but is not without parallel! Have a look at this group: https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/berliner/catalogue-id-bahg10000/lot-4086fb7c-459c-42dd-8f47-a49d01669c78 It belonged to a Dr.Bernhard Zscech, a German officer who served with the Ottoman army in WW1, and who is listed as a Hekim Binbaşı or "Physician Major" in a Turkish list of German military officers in Turkey in WW1. He accumulated, inter alia, an EK I and II; a Prussian Red Cross Medal 3rd Class; a 'Hindenburg Cross' for a Frontkaempfer'; and a row of Ottoman awards - Liakat-Medal, in silver with sabres, Imtiyaz medal in silver with sabres, an "Iron Crescent", or Harp madalya - and a Mecidiye Order 3rd Class. He is listed as serving at the Deniz Asker Hastanesinde or 'Sailors Hospital' and the Taşkışla hastanesi or 'Hospice' in Constantinople.

The Ottoman Medjidieh in this group is 5th Class and so I suspect the recipient was a Leutnant - and I do have a candidate in mind.. But I would welcome all and any comments. Oh, and yes, I did wonder if it was a 'marriage' of medals that did not belong to each other - but a marriage getting a zinc Red Cross medal where a silver one should be and everything else in order?

Edited May 6, 2018 by Trajan
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[Deruelle]

Hi

Very nice medal bar. thanks for sharing it with us

[Trajan]

Thanks - pride and joy really of my small collection! I have a selection of German state groups with EK's etc., but this is my only group with an Ottoman award as well.

[arb]

Here is Zschech's entty from the "Stammliste des Marine Sanitäts Offizierkorps 1848-1918"

 

Andy

[ixhs]

There is no chance to ID that guy without a name.

The 1st red cross medal is wrong. You need to chance it in a 2nd class (with red enamel)

The König Ludwig cross was a mass decoration.

What we know is, that this decorated person was a prussian - may be a medic.

The bar was made in the mid 1930s.

[Stogieman]

I've always liked the early Turkish awards to Germans, impressive bar.

[Trajan]

On 10/05/2018 at 00:24, ixhs said:

There is no chance to ID that guy without a name.

The 1st red cross medal is wrong. You need to chance it in a 2nd class (with red enamel)

The König Ludwig cross was a mass decoration.

What we know is, that this decorated person was a prussian - may be a medic.

The bar was made in the mid 1930s.

To your first point...  A serving medical officer with Ottoman army (Major Zscech) can have an EK I and II, a Red Cross 3rd Class, a 'Hindenburg Cross', and a Medjidieh Order 3rd Class. A medic representing the Red Cross and attached to to the German forces (Zlocisti, See http://www.regimentals.co.uk/viewitem.php?id=47) has an 'honorary' rank of Captain. and an EK I and II, Red Cross 2nd and 3rd Class, and a Medjidieh Order 4th Class... 

The bar I have has a Medjidieh Order 5th Class so ranks lower than an 'honorary Captain' so this is awarded to a Leutnant??? Best match I know of is  a Hekim Teğmen (= Physician Leutnant) F. Schmücke, serving in a hospital at Beirut. But not my field of research...

Yes, I am fully aware there is a mistake there... I do KNOW that there should be a silver second class in front of the bronze 3rd class... Read my post... So, what was happened here? Think on it... A medal bar with two Prussian red cross medals but a zinc one where a silver one shuld be? My take. The silver went lost, but somebody knew what the ribbon was for and so put the zinc one there - note how it hangs lower than the rest. That person who replaced it KNEW it had to be a red cross medal but did know or did not have access to a silver one. I won't change it - piece of history as it is!

I don't know how widely the König Ludwig cross was awarded - but wasn't it more a civilian decoration? Either way, the man ths bar belonged to was indeed a Prussian - and not "may be a medic", but I would think "certainly a medic", and an officer medic at that!

Yes, of course a 1930's bar - it has a HK on it! I am not a complete dumbo!!!

[webr55]

A very fine bar, congratulations!

I agree with what you think, this is an original bar in which the 2nd class Red Cross Medal was lost and incorrectly replaced. 

I believe this was not an officer's bar. The Medjidieh order is key here: foreigners were usually awarded one grade higher than what nationals of the same rank got (as was common in many countries). So Dr. Zschech got a 3rd class neck cross, which he would not have received in Prussia in that grade. This one was probably not a Dr., but a senior level medical NCO, who got a 5th class which (for nationals) would have been conferred only to officers. 

The construction of the bar also looks more like an NCO's. So while the wearer is unfortunately invisible, it is of course a great bar.

 

Regards

Chris