War Honor Cross for Heroic Deeds with the original case

[Solomon]

Does someone has the text of a citation for this cross? It would be interesting to read, for which level of actions and deeds it was awarded.

It?s very easy, you can find the statues at the document?s back. They are the same for the war merit cross, except ? 4.

Here is a scan from one of my documents...

Greetings

Solomon

[JensF.]

Thanks, but I search a real citation from a soldier who got this award. For example "He captured 20 machine guns..." etc.

[Solomon]

Hmm, I?ve never seen such a citation yet. Maybe you can find it in the files of the archive in Detmold ???

In my passport of "August Kramer", there is only a entry "Stellungskrieg in frz. Flandern"...

His signed receipt, I found in the archive, doesn?t say anything about that.

Greetings

Solomon

Edited July 1, 2006 by Solomon

[Guest Rick Research]

This is an exceptionally good thread!

From the random bits and pieces which have survived to turn up in collections, I believe the actual citations (as in what we have for Soviet awards) DID exist... those were submitted to each German federal state's equivalent of a War Ministry, from which awards were approved or turned down, and forwarded to the Orders Chanceries for issuing decorations.

So it is possible that vast heaps of papers exist all over with this information... or perhaps most has been destroyed or thrown away. If anything DOES survive, it is probably stored someplace completely separate from awards archives... in with soldiers' personnel files, pension records or whatever.

Austria-Hungary had a neat system which was EXACTLY the same as the Soviets used later, of putting in nominations for awards on a standard form ("Belohnungsantrag"), with a full text citation, and each level of approval agreeing or changing the decoration finally bestowed.

From the merest glimpses that turn up (Bavarian Bravery Medal citations, Saxon Saint Henry Order citations and so on) I asume that the same paperwork system as used elsewhere in Imperial Germany.

Except in insane Mecklenburg-Strelitz, of course!

[Stogieman]

I can confirm Rick's thoughts on this. We had a wonderful St. Henry Medal group that actually included the written citation passed up the line recommending the Silver Medal for extreme bravery. It's logical to assume at least the larger states (Bavaria, Prussia) probably followed this practice as well.

[JensF.]

Stogie, do you have a pic of the St. Henry citation?

[Wild Card]

Hi Solomon,

I would first like to say how much I appreciate all of the work you have done on your presentations of the various awards of Lippe. Not having had the opportunity to spend much time on the study of these awards, your threads have been most enlightening.

With regard to the discussion in posts #10 and #11, I would like to offer a picture of a very similar piece which I have had for over twenty years. Please take note of the blemish on the upper arm. While I can not describe it as a crack, the appears to be two tiny holes which are barely visible in the close-up photo. I don?t know if this just adds to the confusion or may provide some clues that will lead to an answer.

Again, thank you,

Wild Card

[Wild Card]

Close-up

[Solomon]

Thank you, Wild Card

Because I don?t live far away from Detmold, it is easy for me to research information in the archive of Detmold.

I think the crack in my cross maybe a production-fault, because it is almost unworn.

By the way...here is something very interesting, which can only be found in the archive.

The document is originally signed by the "Red Baron"...his various awards are very interesting

(I?m allowed to show you this copy -> copyrights by the archive in Detmold)

Hope you enjoy it...

Greetings

Solomon

[Guest Rick Research]

Now that is how Award Rolls SHOULD be kept! Lippe did things RIGHT!

[Kev in Deva]

I think the crack in my cross maybe a production-fault, because it is almost unworn.

Greetings

Solomon

Hallo Solomon.

Is it possible that a Cross or medal would have been issued to an officer or soldier with a production fault?, I thought all these would have been inspected before leaving the factory, or if a private purchase the buyer would have rejected it out of hand.

The only logical explanation is it was damaged after issue by being dropped on the ground and possibly stood upon by a large body of marching men

Kevin in Deva

[Daniel Cole]

Heh Rick,

Does that awards roll answer the question as to what Bavarian Merit Order v. Richthofen had? Seems there was confusion over a 3rd class, or 4th with crown, don't recall exactly.

If I'm reading correct it looks like a 4th with swords only, no crown.

Dan

Edited July 9, 2006 by Daniel Cole

[Ralph A]

Looks like it.

[Stogieman]

Now that's a darn interesting document!!

[Solomon]

Hallo Solomon.

Is it possible that a Cross or medal would have been issued to an officer or soldier with a production fault?, I thought all these would have been inspected before leaving the factory, or if a private purchase the buyer would have rejected it out of hand.

Kevin in Deva

You are right, I didn?t think about that... I was wondering, because a very small piece is broken out from this cross....a quite strange crack.

@all

The only bavarian order, which is listed is " bayer. Mil.-Verdienst Orden IV m. Schw." (bavarian military merit order 4.th class with swords).

But please remember...his list only includes awards he got till 23th October 1917!

Some (later) awards are missing...the Red Eagle Order 3th class with the crown and swords for example!

Greetings

Solomon

[Solomon]

Here is another nice picture, which I have new in my collection.

It was taken in WW II, but it fits here perfect...

The soldier, Leutnant of the infantery-regiment No. 63, awarded the turkish Gallipoli star (Tuerkischer Halbmond),

the honor cross for heroic deeds (convex-form) and at his ribbon-bar you can find

-IC 2nd class 1914

-house-order or military merit medal Lippe-Detmold (with swords)

-war honor cross Lippe-Detmold

-bavarian military merit cross 4th class with swords (?)

-??? (maybe turkish medal)

-Hindenburg-Cross with swords

May be someone can fill the ??? at the ribbon-bar for me ?

Greetings

Solomon

[Daniel Cole]

Interesting, I don't see an EK1.

[Solomon]

Interesting, I don't see an EK1.

He didn?t had to own an EK1 for the honor-cross of Lippe-Detmold.

And there was even no need to own the war-merit-cross Lippe-Detmold....look at Richthofen?s awards

I have one another military-passport in my collection from a person who awarded this cross...again no EK 1.

Greetings

Solomon

[Guest Rick Research]

AGH!!!! I suspect that is a Cross or Medal of the House Order with Xs and he was an Unteroffizier because here he is only a Leutnant der Reserve before 1939...

I HAVE those rolls, but NOT the pinback Cross roll to compare against!

[Solomon]

I HAVE those rolls, but NOT the pinback Cross roll to compare against!

There is something I?ve forgotten...there is a name on the original negative...the shown photo is only a copy from it.

But I wasn?t able to identify the name... I`ll make a scan...maybe you can help me, to give this man a name. At my next visit in Detmold I?ll check this name with the receipts of the pinback-cross.

Greetings

Solomon

Edited August 1, 2006 by Solomon

[Solomon]

Here is the name on the bag of the negative...maybe "B?smer" ???

[Solomon]

And here is his name written directly on the negative...

I?m quite sure that he got the House Order with swords of Lippe-Detmold (4th class 1.Division maybe).

I hope, i?t isn?t too much work to check all names in your lists

Thank you very much fpor your help!

Greetings

Solomon

[Solomon]

Here is the name on the bag of the negative...maybe "B?smer" ???

I correct myself...it should be "B?hmer" (sounds much better )

Greetings

Solomon

[Paul C]

I have two nice bars with the Lippe medal. The first is a frack bar

[Paul C]

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