Looking for identification of ribbon on Austrian ribbon bar

[drspeck]

Dear all,

 

Please see the attached photo’s. A recently received Austrian ribbon bar that came from auction. All parts are UV negative. I’m looking to identify the first ribbon which has me stumped. The pink threading on the back could make you believe the first ribbon might have been changed but the pink threading runs actually all the way round – the red color of the backing makes the pink appear more red -, so the first ribbon appears to be an original addition. Anyone any idea? Also, the last ribbon is folded a couple of times, but looks to be something Romanian.

 

All help appreciated ??

 

Regards, Peter

[drspeck]

5 hours ago, Simius Rex said:

The first ribbon is Czechoslovakian.  It is known as the Czechoslovakian Volunteer Combatants Cross of 1918 – 1919.

The medal was introduced in 1920 and was awarded to the volunteer combatants who fought to protect the frontiers of the newly established Czechoslovakia during the period of 1918-19, mainly against the Hungarian Bolshevik forces of Bela Kun. 

So your man was most likely a Czech who formerly served in the Austro-Hungarian Army. 

To see the Hungarian Commemorative Medal for Combattants of the Great War on this ribbon bar is both shocking and funny at the same time.  The Czechs and the Slovaks hated the Hungarians and vice versa.   

Many thanks  that volunteer cross makes it an interesting combo ?

[tifes]

Hello,

one small correction and possible explanation. Czechoslovakian Volunteer Combatants Cross of 1918 – 1919, also called  "In Difficult Times Medal" was introduced just in 1938. This ribbon is clearly made in German style. In Czechoslovakia (1st Republic 1918-1938)  it was absolutely forbidden to openly wear A-H medals and decorations. The only medals from period 1914-1918 which could be worn were those as awarded by Allies (to the former combatants in Czechoslovak legions). This looks like former AH officer, who obviously took part in defending Slovakia (as part of Czechoslovakia) against Hungarian Bolshevik Aggression of Béla Kun regime. However things changed after annexation of Sudetenland in October 1939. New 2nd Czechoslovak republic was set up but existed only till March 1939 when 3rd Reich took rest of Czech lands and Moravia and Slovakia became puppet state, fully in hands of Nazi Germany. This ribbon bar might originate from period of 2nd Republic as ban on A-H medals as well as WWI commemorative medals (Hungary, Austria, Bulgaria) was lifted.  Last medal might be Bulgarian one (hard to recognize it when folded but maybe Order "for Bravery" ?)  

Regards,

Tifes   

[922F]

Tifes makes a very good case here!

[Bayern]

I agree with Tifes . The newly created Czech Republic Army altough containing many ex Austro Hungarian Officers and NCOs was dominated by the Legionaries and these men dont wanted ever the slightest reference to the Imperial Army . perhaps because they were technically deserters and turncoats of the Old Army. 

[drspeck]

Dear all,  thank you all for the excellent additional information  A late 1930's date sounds logical given the information as presented here and the fact that the bar does look like a German style bar. At least I now know what the first ribbon represents and how this curious combination of ribbons might have come to be

I'll add a note with this information to the bar

Edited October 28, 2020 by drspeck

[Bayern]

23 hours ago, Simius Rex said:

Very interesting information, but I'm trying to understand its relevance to the question asked by drspeck or the ribbon bar he presented.

One cannot conclude the bar's owner was necessarily a Czech or a Slovak, because thousands upon thousands of Czechs also served in the Wehrmacht, (including the Heer, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine, and the Waffen-SS) after being registered as German nationals and receiving Reich citizenship, according to Czech historian František Emmert in his book Češi ve Wehrmachtu. 

Many thousands of Czechs desiring to become "Gemanized" and shedding the classification of "Slavs" is not something the Czechs like to talk about, but it happened nevertheless.  If you read the translation of Mr. Emmert's book, many former ethnic-Czech officers of the Austro-Hungarian Army were keen on continuing their military service in the armed forces of the Third Reich.    

About the relevance its clear , And without knowledge of the history of the Czech Republic until 1939 and of the Protectorate from 1939 to 1945 is difficult to arrive to any conclusion . I posted trying to help 

[tifes]

On 28/10/2020 at 02:37, Simius Rex said:

Very interesting information, but I'm trying to understand its relevance to the question asked by drspeck or the ribbon bar he presented.

One cannot conclude the bar's owner was necessarily a Czech or a Slovak, because thousands upon thousands of Czechs also served in the Wehrmacht, (including the Heer, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine, and the Waffen-SS) after being registered as German nationals and receiving Reich citizenship, according to Czech historian František Emmert in his book Češi ve Wehrmachtu. 

Many thousands of Czechs desiring to become "Gemanized" and shedding the classification of "Slavs" is not something the Czechs like to talk about, but it happened nevertheless.  If you read the translation of Mr. Emmert's book, many former ethnic-Czech officers of the Austro-Hungarian Army were keen on continuing their military service in the armed forces of the Third Reich.    

Well, my whole point regarding this bar was that if there was some combatant (in whatever rank) who was entitled to wear Czechoslovak Volunteer Combatants Cross 1918-1919, then he was a Czechoslovak citizen. Ethnically he could be German, of course as Germans represented 30% of Czechoslovakian population. However in period of 1918— October 1938 nobody could officially wear AH medals on his uniform as this was prohibited by law. After dissolution of Czechoslovakia in March 1939 German authorities, vice versa, banned all Czechoslovak decorations in Protectorate and in puppet Slovak state there were replaced by specific, newly created decoration. Moreover, I can’t imagine that ethnical German, former Czechoslovak citizen who became citizen of the Reich, would ever wear some Czechoslovak medal in the Protectorate.  Therefore, I came up with theory that there is only one specific “time slot” and hence 2nd Czechoslovak republic where such ribbon bar could be worn and I would say that he was either Czech or Slovak as Germans in Sudentland were already “back in the Reich”.  Just theory, not something carved in the stone.     

Concerning the book of Mr. Emmet “Czechs in Wehrmacht” I have read it like 15 years ago and honestly  I don’t know anything about translation as I don’t need it but in original the books tells the story of ethnic Czechs from two specific regions, Teschen (till 1918 part of Cisleithania, directly attached to Austria as Grand duchy, originating from 1st and 3rd partition of Poland) and Hultschin (till 1920 part of Germany), who fought in ranks of Wehrmacht. These two regions were never part of Czech lands and after German occupation in October 1938 they immediately became part of the Reich. German authorities didn’t give a damn who is who. Everybody was German there…“on paper”.  All guys, including Czechs who didn´t have any sympathy for Nazi regime and they feel Czech, had to go to Wehrmacht and when they (some of them) returned back home when Czechoslovakia was re-established then Czechoslovak authorities didn’t have a clue what to do with them. They were like “forced combatants”, consequently left behind even when wounded and/or in bad physical and mental conditions. Sad history...

Of course, there were also “quislings” among Czechs, as this was a case in every occupied nation then, who joined voluntarily SS, cooperated with Gestapo etc, but I do not remind that books talks about it. Maybe some later enlarged edition…

 

[nickstrenk]

Also 2 Slovak awards from the period of the Slovak Republic 1939-45 were worn on the same ribbon-The Civiilan Cross For Merit  and the Medal of Hlinka Youth.So I suppose the ribbon belongs to one of this awards.