What goes with the Überrock?

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

 

what combinations could an officer wear with his Überrock?

Mütze, Pickelhaube ?

Bricade belt, Paradeschärpe?

I am having trouble finding period pics...

Best

Chris

[Glenn J]

Hi Chris,

either the Mütze or helmet could be worn in service or campaign dress prior to the war. The brocade belt was not introduced until 1896. Following that date, this too could be worn in service and campaign dress. After 1896 the Pardeschärpe was not worn with the Überrock. Prior to the introduction of the brocade belt (Feldbinde), those officers in immediate proximity to the Kaiser (Prussia) and other sovereigns such as Generaladjutanten, Flügeladjutanten and the like wore the Paradeschärpe with the Überrock. Additionally, general officers and officers on higher formation staffs also wore the paradeschärpe on campaign dress. Please find below a portrait of General der Infanterie von Plettenberg wearing both helmet and brocade belt. A much earlier portrait of the future Generalmajor Julius von Gilsa, shows him as a Major of FAR 4 in campaign dress in 1871 wearing the Schärpe. It would seem that regimental officers routinely wore the Überrock on campaign during the Franco-German war of 1870-71.

 

Regards

Glenn

 

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

 

thanks, that is clearer than I have found in a day of hitting the books...

So with my Überrock of von Leonrod I could go with achselbänder, belt, sword, and Pickelhaube ?

The Medal situation seems to have been totally minimalist, on neiter of his Überrock are any loops at all....

Thanks

Chris

 

[GdC26]

A commanders cross at the neck would not be uncommon (in your case, BMVO2/BMVO2X?)

Cheers, Sandro

[Chris Boonzaier]

1 hour ago, GdC26 said:

A commanders cross at the neck would not be uncommon (in your case, BMVO2/BMVO2X?)

Cheers, Sandro

oooooohhhhh.... I was hoping for something a little bit cheaper... like an EK2 ribbon? ?

[GdC26]

Possible, if he got one and the coat is wartime, if it is prewar, this would look good though: https://www.dorotheum.com/de/l/6920260/ and checking hte HH catalogue there was one in the estate. Perhaps a commanders grade pre-war foreign award? unfortunately, the only commanders grade I noticed on checking hte catalogue was the ÖMVO2, and these tend to be only slightly less expensive than the BMVO2. But if he was awarded something Italian for example, that might work.

Cheers, 

Sandro

[GdC26]

The clipping is from the Militär Handbuch 1914, and I have assumed the coat is one of the pre-war blue ones auctioned at HH and that this is your man. If you want to go with a foreign there: perhaps a ÖFJ1 or ÖEK2? 

Edited November 15, 2020 by GdC26

[Chris Boonzaier]

Indded, there is a minimalist approach which fits here... I had missed the fact that it does have loops for a single steck kreuz.

The Plettenberg Photo is about as much as I would go, but Price is an issue as it is not really my collecting field.

You sometimes see Generals or GFM with only an OK ribbon and EK1... As Leonrod had an EK2, maybe just the ribbon? Although a fitting neck order would look very cool...

 

[GdC26]

If there is no evidence of an EK II ribbon having been attached to the coat I would personally not attach one. Is the coat prewar or wartime? Some pics of the coat and loops might help.

And perhaps this could offer some inspiration: 

 

Edited November 15, 2020 by GdC26

[Chris Boonzaier]

Why does he not have an MVO on the bar?

[GdC26]

35 minutes ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

Why does he not have an MVO on the bar?

He had an BMVO officers cross with swords that probably fits the loops on your coat - not cheap, not cheap ...... ?

[Chris Boonzaier]

17 hours ago, GdC26 said:

He had an BMVO officers cross with swords that probably fits the loops on your coat - not cheap, not cheap ...... ?

Bah!... Fieldgrey tunics are so much easier.....

[GdC26]

If the Rock was worn past the award date of the EK II you could in any event mount an EK II in the manner shown in the von Plettenberg pic you posted.

 

[BlackcowboyBS]

Well Chris, if you want to go more expensive you can go with the kleindekorationen (little decorations) of

• the prussian black eagle,
• the Grandcross of the red eagle,
• the first class of the crown order
• or the order of the prussian crown.

all these kleindekorationen were worn by Wilhelm II. on his Überrock. 

 

Edited November 17, 2020 by BlackcowboyBS

[Chris Boonzaier]

7 hours ago, BlackcowboyBS said:

Well Chris, if you want to go more expensive you can go with the kleindekorationen (little decorations) of

• the prussian black eagle,
• the Grandcross of the red eagle,
• the first class of the crown order
• or the order of the prussian crown.

all these kleindekorationen were worn by Wilhelm II. on his Überrock. 

 

Hi,

indeed... but as it is the Überrock of Leonrod, I need something he would have worn ?

[Bayern]

Hello Chris , A sugerence :  Enter  " Kaisermanoever 1912 " and then Images , you will find some pics of Wilhelm II and his entourage . the Ueberrock is dominant with pickelhaube or lancer cap or kurassier helm among the high Staffs . all carries feldbinde and in the case of Cavalry or Artillery , shoulder belt . a minimum of decorations .

[GdC26]

17 hours ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

Hi,

indeed... but as it is the Überrock of Leonrod, I need something he would have worn ?

EK II on a folded ribbon suspended from the second buttonhole would be a start if he still wore the coat after receiving that decoration (from memory, it is a pre-war blue coat, but who knows). 

Cheers, Sandro

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by GdC26

[Chris Boonzaier]

29 minutes ago, GdC26 said:

EK II on a folded ribbon suspended from the second buttonhole would be a start if he still wore the coat after receiving that decoration (from memory, it is a pre-war blue coat, but who knows). 

Cheers, Sandro

 

I am wondering if he maybe did wear it... he was still Obersthoffmeister until the end of the war, and continued to be in the close entourage until the death of Ludwig III... and then looked after the family affairs for a short while afterwards... He did visit the front on various occasions with Ludwig but I am assuming on regular duties back in München he would have made use of all the Blue stuff in a wardrobe?

[GdC26]

20 minutes ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

I am wondering if he maybe did wear it... he was still Obersthoffmeister until the end of the war, and continued to be in the close entourage until the death of Ludwig III... and then looked after the family affairs for a short while afterwards... He did visit the front on various occasions with Ludwig but I am assuming on regular duties back in München he would have made use of all the Blue stuff in a wardrobe?

Possible. Is the coat dated?

 

And are there any pics of him wearing it in the HH auction catalogue (which is still up)?

[Chris Boonzaier]

Just the tailor tag, I must check the date. There were 2 in the auction.  ihave a postcard somewhere of him wearing one around 1914.... the HH auktion had many nice pics, but just very early ones of him from what I could see

[Chris Boonzaier]

Our dudes are here....

 

[GdC26]

If there is no evidence of an EK II ribbon having been attached to the coat I would personally not attach one. Is the coat prewar or wartime? Some pics of the coat and loops might help.

7 hours ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

Our dudes are here....

 

Thanks, I had forgotten about that thread. Based on those pics, why not keep an eye out for an adjutant sash and aguilettes? That will set up the coat nicely, for substantially less than any of the orders you would need.

[Chris Boonzaier]

The sash is a bugger to find.

I don't know that anyone had specifically prewar or wartime uniforms, unless they were a pattern no longer worn after a certain date.

I thought of the EK ribon after seein a number of photos of very highly decorated officers wearing just an EK1 and ribbon... all the way up to GFM...

Having said that... as he probably had a homefront EK2, I am not sure he would have pushed it to the fore....

[GdC26]

Checking pics on the web, it strikes me that Baviarian's cin the king's entourage simply did not generally wear EK II's. 

[Chris Boonzaier]

I assume it was a dislike of the Prussians... it was strong back then... I remember a book by a Prussian who landed up in a Bavarian hospital... he was treated terribly until he convinced them he was a saxon.... It is not rare to see Bavarians wearing the EK backwards, the Oakleaves to the fore...