Question: How many Karl Truppen Crosses can a recipient earn?

[Christian1962]

5 hours ago, Utgardloki said:

@Christian1962

Regarding the troop cross discussion. If you look into the "Verordnungsblatt für das k. u. k. Heer / Normalverordnungen / 25. Stück / 6. Juli 1918 S. 129ff" 

you find the "Statuten und Durchführungsbestimmungen für das [...] Karl-Truppen-Kreuz"

https://alex.onb.ac.at/cgi-content/alex-day?aid=kkh&datum=19180706&seite=5&zoom=33

There you find on page 6 "Ad §3 Punkt 1."

"8. Anspruch auf das Karl-Truppenkreuz haben:"

and then under the letter n) (on page ?

"n) An Nazarener darf das Karl-Truppen-Kreuz nicht verliehen werden" 

(That's the sentence the author of the OMSA-Text cites)

I am actually not sure if Jews are meant with this word - maybe one of you can help here

 

Beside that, I found the article "Das österreichische Karl-Truppen-Kreuz " in the "Orden und Ehrenzeichen" magazine number 51 from 2007 by Walter A. Schwarz. There he lists all the Verordnungsblätter regarding the cross. I couldn't find the ones like "BH Nr. 45/1917/Z. 639/S. 472" with the signature "BH" at the Austrian national library. What does "BH" mean?

Good morning!

You are right assuming that "Nazarener" are not jews but a christian sect/renewal movement as cited from Meyers Konversationslexikon.

The "BH"-signature should be from the official library of the Austrian ministery of defence. I will check that later and correct it when wrong.

A new point: please don´t forget the the k.u.k. army was very tolerant of many religious communities . So there existed an own corps of Jewish military rabbis (look at the pic below which is from "Schematismus für das k.u.k. Heer 1910, pg. 1235 and Rangliste 1918). During WW1 this corps was extended to 77 rabbis in 1918. Why should they have excluded Jews from the bestowing of the Karl-Troop-Cross...

Regards

Christian

 

[Utgardloki]

8 hours ago, Christian1962 said:

You are right assuming that "Nazarener" are not jews but a christian sect/renewal movement as cited from Meyers Konversationslexikon.

Thanks for confirming, 
if someone is able to contact the author from the text on the OMSA-Website, would be great (i don't have an account there, if no one does I maybe create one)

 

8 hours ago, Christian1962 said:

A new point: please don´t forget the the k.u.k. army was very tolerant of many religious communities . So there existed an own corps of Jewish military rabbis (look at the pic below which is from "Schematismus für das k.u.k. Heer 1910, pg. 1235 and Rangliste 1918). During WW1 this corps was extended to 77 rabbis in 1918. Why should they have excluded Jews from the bestowing of the Karl-Troop-Cross...

That is also why I couldn't believe this was actually true, it would definitely have been a great surprise to me. (and I would have felt deeply ashamed for the authorities.)

[graham]

Well done Utgardloki, great research. I noticed the OMSA website has been amended with the correct information.

[Ian]

Graham,

I second your comment regarding the well done to Utgardloki.

[Trooper_D]

This has been a very interesting thread and I join Graham and Ian in giving kudos to Utgardloki for correcting this misconception.

However, it raises a new question, does it not? Why should members of the Nazarenes - a Christian sect - be prevented from being awarded the Karl-Truppenkreuz?

Edited March 3, 2021 by Trooper_D

[Utgardloki]

Thanks al lot for your kind comments!

13 hours ago, Trooper_D said:

However, it raises a new question, does it not? Why should members of the Nazarenes - a Christian sect - be prevented from being awarded the Karl-Truppenkreuz?

According to the entry in Meyers Konversationslexikon(1905) they discarded the wearing of weapons and only accepted the military-service when being forced.

I guess they might have been sort of a source of unrest within the armed forces, why some generals/officers or other deciding authorities might have disliked them. Or they just were discriminated because of their beliefs. But all that is pure speculation. The book cited in the article "Der Nazarenismus" by Szeberényi might give answers.

But apart from that, I wouldn't understand why a member of this group, when being a soldier like every other one, fulfilling all the rules, shouldn't get the cross.

Edited March 3, 2021 by Utgardloki

[Trooper_D]

10 hours ago, Utgardloki said:

According to the entry in Meyers Konversationslexikon(1905) they discarded the wearing of weapons and only accepted the military-service when being forced.

I guess they might have been sort of a source of unrest within the armed forces, why some generals/officers or other deciding authorities might have disliked them. Or they just were discriminated because of their beliefs. But all that is pure speculation. The book cited in the article "Der Nazarenismus" by Szeberényi might give answers.

But apart from that, I wouldn't understand why a member of this group, when being a soldier like every other one, fulfilling all the rules, shouldn't get the cross.

Thank you for this further information, which does suggest what was behind the official thinking. However, as you have indicated, this prohibition doesn’t appear completely logical.

[Ian]

Just a thought, but perhaps the  Nazarenes refused to carry/use arms (conscientious objectors) and only served (under protest) as non combatants and therefore the various authorities deemed them to be unworthy of a 'Front Line' service award such as the Karl Truppen Kreuz.  As I said just a thought.

[BlackcowboyBS]

wow, I love that video, even if I don't understand a single word! 

 

By the way, the tex below that video reads as:

The Habsburg Hall of the Royal Castle in Buda was the scene of a glittering military ceremony, where Governor Miklós Horthy of Nagybánya, after more than two and a half decades, invested a new Knight of the Order of Maria Theresa, Major General Kornél Oszlányi. [Miklós Horthy:] "This is the first time that I have had the opportunity to present this highest decoration of military virtue to Major General Kornél Oszlányi, based on the unanimous opinion of the first Hungarian Chapter. Major General Oszlányi, as the commander of the light division, has set a shining example of heroic conduct, valour, wise prudence and leadership under the most difficult conditions. Therefore, I hereby make him a member of the Order and decorate him with its badge with the traditional prescribed words: 'He receives from my hand the badge of the Order of Maria Theresa. This is a testimony to his deeds and his admission to this Order, which is dedicated to his valour and wise discretion alone. May it be worn to the glory of God and may it stimulate the defence of the Fatherland."

 

Edited June 8, 2021 by BlackcowboyBS