Litzen/ Kragenspiegel question from a newbie to Imperial German...

[OhioDoughboy1917]

Hi all, I have a few questions regarding litzen during WW1. I wasn't able to find anything online, or at least not specifically what I was looking for. Anyways, what litzen would be worn by officers of Garde zu Fuss regiments? I can't quite get a concrete answer, and the color plates I have found are all for dunkelblau and pre-WW1/ Feldgrau uniforms... I read that Offiziere of GzF had golden gilt litzen emboridered on white wool. Would this have applied to officers wearing Feldgrau? Does anyone have any surviving uniforms? I am quite confused, honestly. I'd like to make a little spreadsheet for myself of who wore what and which rank and so forth. Would officers of Leib regiments had a different background color than those of the lower ranks? My apologies for such a newbie question!

Thank you very much!

Warmest regards,
Seth Moore

[dwmosher]

For Prussian 1. GRzF thru 5.GRzF,  there was an order of precedence for  shoulder boards and straps with no numbers or cyphers (white, red, yellow and blue).  For M-10 officer Feldrocks, this also translated to the base tab color on the collar.  1.GRzF thru 4.GRzF would use the same muted metallic Doppelitzen on the tabs and utilized Swedish cuffs.  The 5.GRzF has a white base color tab but a single "Old Prussian" style pointed litzen bar and a Brandenburg cuff.  The Prussian Guard Grenadier units, GGR1 thru GGR5, utilized this same order of precedence for shoulder boards (white, red, yellow and blue), which also translated to the base tab color for officer M-10 Feldrocks. GGR1 thru GGR4 would use the same muted metallic Doppellitzen, wore specific cyphers on the shoulder boards and all would use the Brandenburg cuff.  The GGR5 has a white base collar tab but a single "Old Prussian" style pointed litzen bar and no cyphers on the boards.  The Guard Fusilier Regiment used a yellow base tab for the officer M-10 Feldrock, with muted metallic Doppellitzen and Swedish cuffs. All of the units above used brass buttons except 1.GRzF, 5.GRzF and G Fus.R, which used silver buttons.   

 

 

[dwmosher]

 Here are the M-1910 officer collar tabs for Prussian Guard Regiments zu Fuss and Guard Grenadier Regiments:

 

White -  1.GRzF  and GGR1 (w/ Doppellitzen); 5.GRzF and GGR5 (w/ Old Prussian Litzen)

Red - 2.GRzF and GGR2

Yellow - 3.GRzF and GGR3

Blue - 4.GRzF and GGR4

 

[dknyc71]

This is a very interesting thread.  Mr. Mosher, thanks for a good description.  I also understand that these collar tabs had matching cuff litzen, yes? 

 

How about 'generic-non colored' officer collar tabs (images attached), when were they worn, combat?  I have a set on a tunic (attached), and there is no cuff litzen, the cuffs on the tunic are red piped French style with nothing on them.

[dwmosher]

Your  privately purchased M-1910 waffenrock has officer M-1915 collar litzen to be worn on the Bluse.  When you state that the tunic has piped "French cuffs", I am presuming you are describing a barrel cuff.  If this is the case, 1915 was a transitional period where waffenrocks were simplified (cuffs being one of the simplifications) and the Bluse was being introduced.  As I noted above, the tunic was an officer's private purchase item, so I don't see a problem with the insignia being on it.  What do the cuffs look like and what are the shoulder boards on the tunic?

[dknyc71]

Thank you very much Mr.Mishar, here is the tunic I am referring to:

2

3

4

[dknyc71]

5

 

Edited July 25, 2021 by dknyc71

[dwmosher]

Very nice!  A major with GGR Nr.4.  Based on his rank and the Johanniter Order, he could be narrowed down to a few possibilities (unless the tunic is named, already).  At a first cut, I would think he was either Maj. v. Pommer Esche (ultimately commander of JR85 and killed on 9/13/16) or Maj. v. der Hardt (ultimately commander of JR 408). There was also a Maj. Gr. zu Reventlow, but he died on 10/24/14, taking him off the list.

[The Prussian]

Hello!

I can add a chart of the pre-war era.

 

Edited July 25, 2021 by The Prussian

[dknyc71]

10 hours ago, dwmosher said:

Very nice!  A major with GGR Nr.4.  Based on his rank and the Johanniter Order, he could be narrowed down to a few possibilities (unless the tunic is named, already).  At a first cut, I would think he was either Maj. v. Pommer Esche (ultimately commander of JR85 and killed on 9/13/16) or Maj. v. der Hardt (ultimately commander of JR 408). There was also a Maj. Gr. zu Reventlow, but he died on 10/24/14, taking him off the list.

Thank you VERY much Mr. Mosher for your feedback and great insight!  Could this tunic possibly have belonged to the last commanding officer of GGR Nr.4 Major  Walter von Schleinitz   https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_von_Schleinitz

 

The tunic has loops for a very long medal / ribbon bar spanning the entire area between shoulder and front button closure.  The tunic also has 3 sets of vertical loops in addition to the Johanniter Order on the wearer's left side, and one set of horizontal loops on the wearer's right side.  What could have possibly been placed in those horizontal loops?

 

Thank you again very much for your most valued continued feedback!

 

Edited July 25, 2021 by dknyc71

[dwmosher]

Anything is possible, but he was with GGR Nr. 5 prior to the war and during most of the war (he is with that unit in his photo).   He assumed command of GGR Nr. 4 on 7/26/18

[dwmosher]

Initially, I looked at the 1912 Rangelist to determine who had the Johanniter Order.  I looked in the 1914 Ranglist and found another candidate, Maj. Frhr. v. Lyncker who ultimately commanded the 5. Reserve Infanterie Brigade.

[dknyc71]

11 minutes ago, dwmosher said:

Initially, I looked at the 1912 Rangelist to determine who had the Johanniter Order.  I looked in the 1914 Ranglist and found another candidate, Maj. Frhr. v. Lyncker who ultimately commanded the 5. Reserve Infanterie Brigade.

This is great research and information Mr. Mosher! Thanks! What sort of a badge or decoration could have been worn on the wear’s right side im those horizontal set of loops?  And lastly, would an officer retain the wear of his previous units boards and ciphers while transferring into another unit? 

[dwmosher]

I would think they would take on the boards for the new unit, but keep all of the uniform insignia from the previous unit (litzen, cuff, etc).  I think the horizontal badge on the right would be the Turkish Half Moon.  The German-made high-end Half Moon badges had a horizontal pin...

[dknyc71]

1 hour ago, dwmosher said:

I would think they would take on the boards for the new unit, but keep all of the uniform insignia from the previous unit (litzen, cuff, etc).  I think the horizontal badge on the right would be the Turkish Half Moon.  The German-made high-end Half Moon badges had a horizontal pin...

Thank you Mr.Mosher, I figured whoever wore the must have had it as their last in the war, hence my thoughts of the last CO I f GGR4.  What is the Turkish half moon, was it the Gallipoli Star?

[dwmosher]

Yes, it was also called the 'Gallipoli Star".  I'm not sure if I follow your thoughts concerning you other comment...

[dknyc71]

23 minutes ago, dwmosher said:

Yes, it was also called the 'Gallipoli Star".  I'm not sure if I follow your thoughts concerning you other comment...

Thank you again Sir.  My other thought I was attempting to convey is that whoever wore that tunic at the end of the war was in GGR4, based on the idea that officers upgraded their insignia when going to a new unit.  That is why I thought it was the last CO.  But I guess it could have been anyone that wore it before end of the war and was KIA. This is also under the assumption that the last CO was a major and battalion commanders were Captains.  The last CO was also recipient of the Johannater Order.

[dwmosher]

Yes I saw he had the Johannater Order, too.  However, if we go under the premise he would have worn the uniform insignia of his prior regiment (GGR Nr. 5), he would have worn this litzen (if he wore M-15 insignia as in your tunic)

[GreyC]

Here is an officer of the 4th GGR in a fieldgrey tunic M1907 on a Xmas card for 1915.

Edited July 25, 2021 by GreyC

[dknyc71]

1 hour ago, dwmosher said:

Yes I saw he had the Johannater Order, too.  However, if we go under the premise he would have worn the uniform insignia of his prior regiment (GGR Nr. 5), he would have worn this litzen (if he wore M-15 insignia as in your tunic)

Thank you for posting this image Mr.Mosher, so if indeed it was the COs tunic, he most likely would have had this sort of collar insignia.  So most likely, it is safe to assume, the tunic I have did not belong to the CO, but someone else, someone who would have had the Gallipoli star and the Johannater Order.  

As per the photo which member GreyC posted above, the officer is wearing both collar litzen and cuff litzen.  On my tunic, there is no cuff litzen, and the collar litzen appear to be a generic officer variety, as you kindly mentioned were M-1915.  My question was if my tunic is indeed correct being in its configuration, or if it should be like the one in the photo which GreyC posted?

 

 

 

 

[dwmosher]

The cuff is fine.  As i said, a wide variety of simplifications were done for the tunics, including getting rid of the prior cuff configurations (including litzen) and going to a barrel cuff, which is typically piped.  I have provided an example of a simplified tunic with guard litzen (M-1910 style) and piped barrel cuffs.  The photo provided by GreyC shows an 4. GRzF officer wearing the regulation M-1910 waffenrock (Swedish cuffs vs. Brandenburg cuffs...).  The backing on the collar litzen would be the blue I posted above.

Edited July 25, 2021 by dwmosher

[dknyc71]

2 hours ago, dwmosher said:

The cuff is fine.  As i said, a wide variety of simplifications were done for the tunics, including getting rid of the prior cuff configurations (including litzen) and going to a barrel cuff, which is typically piped.  I have provided an example of a simplified tunic with guard litzen (M-1910 style) and piped barrel cuffs.  The photo provided by GreyC shows an 4. GRzF officer wearing the regulation M-1910 waffenrock (Swedish cuffs vs. Brandenburg cuffs...).  The backing on the collar litzen would be the blue I posted above.

Mr.Mosher these tunics are superb!  Thank you for posting them, they are truly breathtaking!  I really appreciate your good comments on my uniform and wonderful insight.  Now it’s a matter of trying to find out who might have owned the uniform.  As I mentioned, having both the Gallipoli star and Johannater order may be a clue to who owned the tunic.  On the wearer’s left side, other than a wound badge and EKI, what else could have been worn during wartime ? He obviously was not in aviation, so would not be a flight badge. 

[Bayern]

20 hours ago, The Prussian said:

Hello!

I can add a chart of the pre-war era.

 

They went to the Field in August 1914 and later with the litzen portrayed here . 

[03fahnen]

My small contribution to this topic.
Thank you very much for showing these wonderful tunic

 

Doppellitzen M-1910 4.Garde Regiment zu Fuß 

 

 

Doppellitzen M-1910 Garde Fuß Artillerie Regiment