Austrian ribbon bar with golden bar and swords

[hoh1851]

Hello,

 

I have this Austrian ribbon bar in my collection. I know that with regards to the ribbon of the Military Merit Cross/ Bravery Medal it is generally nearly impossibile to say which award (Military Merit Cross, Bravery Medal, Merit Cross with Crown, Military Merit Medal etc.) is meant. But since the bars to the awards were normally silver coloured I am wondering whether the award can be narrowed down in this case. In the past I have seen sometimes Military Merit Crosses with a golden bar and swords. Does anyone know whether this was official and if so whether it was only allowed to Military Merit Crosses or also to other awards?

 

Any thoughts are welcome and appreciated.

 

Thanks and best regards

hoh1851

[hoh1851]

Hi Simius Rex,

 

Many thanks for your reply and the valuable hints. ? These are good news.

Until now I didn't know that swords-devices  were only given to officers. Is there a regulation available showing this?

From knowing this is it also possible to determine the award beeing represented by the first bravery ribbon from the left at this bar?

 

Any help is really appreciated. Many thanks in advance.

 

Sincerly

hoh1851

[Christian1962]

There was a given precedence for k.u.k. orders and medals, but sometimes it was not followed by the makers of ribbon bars. Your can see this precedence in the "Personalverordnungsblatt für das k.u.k. Heer" (see below) where all awards during WW1 were published.

 

They were ranked (following Michteschläger, see below):

.

.

.

Komturkreuz Leopold-Orden

Militärverdienstkreuz 2. Kl.

Orden der Eisernen Krone 2. Kl.

Ritterkreuz Leopold-Orden

Offizierskreuz Franz Joseph-Orden

Orden der Eisernen Krone 3. Kl.

Ritterkreuz Franz Joseph-Orden

Goldene Tapferkeitsmedaille für Offiziere

Silberne Tapferkeitsmedaille für Offiziere

Militärverdienstkreuz 3. Kl.

Silberne Militärverdienstmedaille am Bande des des Militärverdienstkreuzes

Bronzene Militärverdienstmedaille am Bande Militärverdienstkreuzes
.

.

.

 

Following this precedure the ribbon bar above should contain:

 

Militärverdienstkreuz 2. Kl.

Ritterkreuz Leopold-Orden

Ritterkreuz Franz Joseph-Orden (peacetime)

Militärverdienstkreuz 3. Kl. (most appearent, but could be Silberne MVM.X too)

Bronzene MVM.X

Kriegsmedaille

Eisernes Kreuz 2. Kl.

 

BUT: some weeks ago I could take a look on an estate of a k.u.k. Oberst and arty brigade commander. Here was the precedure different:

 

Komturkreuz Franz Joseph Orden with swords

Ritterkreuz Leopold-Orden

Orden der Eisernen Krone 3. Kl.

Militärverdienstkreuz 3. Kl.

SMVM.X

BMVM.X

Karl-Truppenkreuz

 

However, it is most likely that the above ribbon bar contains a commander Franz Joseph then a MVK 2. Kl. Otherwise in most cases there would be an Iron Crown 2. Cl. between them.

 

Anyway both combinations would be very rare.

 

Regards

 

Christian

 

Edited May 23, 2021 by Christian1962

[Christian1962]

I could find out one most likely candidate for that ribbon bar:

 

Generalmajor Ernst von Terboglaw.

 

He owned:

 

MVK 2.X, LO-R.X, FJO-O, MVK.3.X, BMVM.X, KM, EK2.

 

This would provide that he did not wear the full size peacetime FJO-O on his breast pocket but just on the ribbon bar.  The combination of MVK2.X, LO-R.X and a peacetime FJO (R or O) appears to be a real rare case. But in addition with MVK.3.X and BMVM.X, KM and EK2 it could be a single case!

 

Here a potrait of him for comparison:

https://picryl.com/media/gmernst-edler-vterboglaw-bcdf8b

 

I could not find the variant FJO-K.X, LO-R.X, FJO (peacetime), MVK.3.X, BMVM.X, ... anyway.

 

You can check it out  yourself there:

Steiner Jörg, Schematismus der Generale und Obersten der k.u.k. Armee - Stand 31.12.1918.

https://library.hungaricana.hu/en/view/Andere_Steiner_1992/?pg=0&layout=s

 

Regards

 

Christian

[hoh1851]

Many thanks to all of you for your kind assistance and the helpful information and of course for the identification of the former owner. ?

 

Best regards

hoh1851

[Lukasz Gaszewski]

18 hours ago, Simius Rex said:

I was visiting a German forum this morning and one of its members proclaimed that it could be the Gold MVM (aka Grosse Signum Laudis) because the Gold MVM was worn on a bravery ribbon and ranked higher than the Leopold.  SAY WHAT???  ?

I absolutely agree. And you do not need to look far...

 

 

Hermann Pokorny (already as a Hungarian general) with GMVM before the Order of Leopold.

 

[Christian1962]

2 hours ago, Lukasz Gaszewski said:

I absolutely agree. And you do not need to look far...

 

 

Hermann Pokorny (already as a Hungarian general) with GMVM before the Order of Leopold.

 

It´s no question that GMVM ranked before LO-K and LO-R but this not the point regarding the ribbon bar above because Pokorny owned EKO3.KD(X?) and not FJO (peacetime). That rules him out as owner anyway.

 

Regards

 

Christian

[Lukasz Gaszewski]

I did not mean to say the ribbon bar would belong to Pokorny. It was just an example of GMVM being worn before LO-R.

 

Interesting is the lack of the Order of the Iron Crown 3rd Class on the ribbon bar, which may suggest that the recipient was awarded with a higher class.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Lukasz Gaszewski

[chechaco1]

The sequence of wearing the awards of Hungary at Horthy, taking into account the Austro-Hungarian awards https://kituntetes.webnode.hu/kituntetesek/horthy-korszak/viselesi-sorrendek/

Order of precedence of orders and medals of the Austro-Hungarian Empire during the First World War https://ah.org.ua/poryadok-starshinstva-ordenov-i-medalej-avstro-vengerskoj-imperii-perioda-pervoj-mirovoj-vojny

[Elmar Lang]

Hello,

 

assuming that the Feldspange is originally mounted, I'd be pretty confident that its first place represents the Große Militärverdienstmedaille (either with the portrait of Emperor Franz Joseph or Karl), followed by further breast decorations (among them, a FJO awarded in peacetime).

 

Best wishes,

 

Enzo (E.L.)

Edited May 25, 2021 by Elmar Lang

[Elmar Lang]

Hello,

 

my "pretty confidence" is under the condition that -as said- the bar is originally mounted, because there is no other "Kriegsband"-fitted award before the Knight of the Leopold Orden, than the Große Militärverdienstmedaille.

 

By the way, yes, such a Feldspange could have reached the market and a collector.

 

For instance, I have that medal, that under serendipitous coincidence, ended up in my humble collection of A-H awards...

Edited May 25, 2021 by Elmar Lang

[Christian1962]

2 hours ago, Triad08 said:

 

Hello to Enzo.  You are confident that the ribbon-bar under discussion features the Große Militärverdienstmedaille in the first position?  There were a total of nineteen - 19 - KuK-officers who received this award, (not counting 9 Germans and 1 Turk).  These officers were some of the most important and most renowned military leaders of the Empire.  Are you suggesting that the OP, by some serendipitous coincidence, ended-up with a ribbon-bar belonging to one of the famous military personalities listed below?  Regards. 

 

Generaloberst Erzherzog Eugen

Linienschiffsleutnant Gottfried Banfield

Generaloberst Eduard Graf Paar

Generaloberst Arthur Freiherr von Bolfras

Generaloberst Karl Freiherr von Pflanzer-Baltin

Generaloberst Svetozar Boroevic von Bojna

Feldmarschall Erzherzog Friedrich

Generaloberst Franz Freiherr Conrad von Hötzendorf

Generaloberst Friedrich Freiherr von Georgi

Generaloberst Samuel von Hazai

Generaloberst Hermann Kövess von Kövessháza

Generaloberst Eduard von Böhm-Ermolli

Generaloberst Alexander Ritter von Krobatin

Generaloberst Erzherzog Joseph

General der Infanterie Arthur Freiherr Arz von Straussenburg

General der Infanterie Alfred Krauss

General der Kavallerie Alois Fürst Schönburg-Hartenstein

Feldmarschall Franz Freiherr Rohr von Denta

Oberstleutnant in Generalstab Hermann Pokorny

 

 

I have checked out now all owners of GMVM.X.  No one of them owned a peacetime FJO of any grade.

 

That fact should rule out the variant with GMVM.X on that bar we are discussing.

 

But let´s make another experiment: let us assume the first ribbon stands for al GMVM.X which orders and medals could follow?

 

Variant 1:

GMVM.X

LO-KmtK.X

FJO-KmtK/St (peacetime) - which just was owned by FZM Tamásy (who held no GMVM.X)

FJO-KmtK.X

MVK.3.X

KM 1873

EK2

 

Variant 2:

GMVM.X

LO-KmtK.X

FJO-KmtK (peacetime) - which was not held by any GMVM-holder

FJO-O.X

MVK.3.X

 

Variant:

GMVM.X

LO-R.X

FJO-every grade (peacetime) - which was not held by any GMVM-holder

...

 

All following variants are not worth discussing them.

 

In my humble opinion that would rule out GMVM.X at this ribbon bar anyway. Therefore I would like to follow Triad´s argumentation.

 

At the other hand, if we look onto the variant MVK.2.X and LO-R.X we find:

Hugo Martiny

Hugo Edler von Habermann

Ernst Horsetzky von Hornthal

Ferdinand Kosak

Heinrich Goinger

Gustav Szekély de Doba

Gabriel Graf Marenzi

Viktor Bauer von Bauernthal

Karl von Stöhr

Franz Weiss-Tihany-Mainprugg

Karl Steiger

Eugen Edler von Luxardo

Ladislaus Jonik von Jamny

Julius Phleps

Josef Pacor von Karstenfels

Paul Hegedüs

Livius Borotha

Georg Ritter von Szypniewski

Viktor Edler von Kandler

Johann Schwalb

Dr. h.c. Eduard Fischer

Balthasar Pintar

Josef Freiherr von Janecka

Johann Haas von Haagenfels

Franz Graf Zedtwitz

Oskar Minnich

Heinrich Freiherr von Salis-Samaden

Ludwig Rath

Adolf Kornhaber von Pilis

Franz Edler von Haam

Alfred Edler von Hinke

Johann Ritter von Mossig

Rudolf Obauer von Bannerfeld

Walter Schreitter von Schwarzfeld

Ernest Edler von Terboglaw

Ferencz Biffl von Pilca

 

Now let´s have a look who out of this group owned a peacetime FJO-O/R:

Dr. h.c. Eduard Fischer

Paul Hegedüs

Josef Pacor von Karstenfels

Julius Phleps

Johann Schwalb

Walter Schreitter von Schwarzfeld

Gustav Szekély de Doba

Ernest Edler von Terboglaw

Franz Graf Zedtwitz

 

Now we exclude all who owned an EKO.3 because this is not on the bar, who will reach the next level:

Johann Schwalb

Walter Schreitter von Schwarzfeld

Ernest Edler von Terboglaw

 

And now we look who out the last three officers owned to more decorations with swords and in addition KM 1873 and EK2:

Ernest Edler von Terboglaw

 

Again in my humble opinion it´s a little bit more convincing.

 

We could now discuss another variant:

FJO-KmtK.X

LO-R.X

FJO-O/R (peacetime)

 

But there is not one officer from colonel upwards who held that combination. Maybe there are some few from lieutnant-colonel downwards, but I can´t check that now.

 

Regards

 

Christian

 

 

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Christian1962

[Lukasz Gaszewski]

 

On 19/05/2021 at 10:46, hoh1851 said:

 

 

Coming back to the first bar, which was kind of left alone,  it can be said it was certainly the Bundesstaat issue, from between 1934 and 1938. There is the ribbon of the renewed Militärdienstzeichen of 1934 (not to mention the Kriegserinnerungsmedaille of 1932 and Hungarian Haborús Emlékérem of 1929). The mounting is without doubt the pre-Anschluss type.

[hoh1851]

Many thanks again to all of you for this interesting discussion and the additional information. Speaking of the Bundesheer ribbon bar I saw that there are several Austrian Hungarian rank lists and schematismus online.

Are the Bundesheer Schematismus/ Dienstranglisten somewhere online as well?

 

Meanwhile I found some further pictures of Generalmajor Edler von Terboglaw in the Austrian National Archives but unfortunately only one is showing him wearing a ribbon bar. This photo was taken before the awarding of MVK2 and moreover it's of poor quality so not really suitable for a comparison.

 

Best regards and thanks again

hoh1851

[Christian1962]

I have no evidence that ÖBH-Schematimen are oneline anwhere but I think I can help you researching in my own database. There are not so many officers with this combination of decorations as I assumed. Most of them had an EKO.3.X and/or an order of the Austrian Republic or the Prussian EK2. This narrows the candidates quite down:

 

Oberstleutnant Franz Reicher (IR 5)

 

You must know that the Tyrolian War Medal 1914 - 1918 was not listed in Schematismus. And they were not very accurate with foreign medals such as the Hungarian war medal.

Reicher is the best match for active officers between 1928 (first printed Schematismus) and 1937 (last printed). It is evident that there could have been retired officers who never were listed in a Schematismus.

 

Regards

 

Christian

 

 

[Christian1962]

I have tried to find out the correct precedence of k.u.k. orders with help of a friend who works in the Austrian State Archives. There was just a single sheet to find:

 

 

Another file would have been more interesting but it is missed. This special file was the reply of the Obersthofmeisteramt to Michetschläger when he asked for the precendence for his book.

 

BUT: so we can assume that he published the correct precedence in his book on base of this reply!

 

Regards

 

Christian

 

 

[Christian1962]

Good news!

 

I could find now the order of precedence effective with November 1917. It was published via "Erlass vom 15.11.1917, Präs. 31500":

 

 

Here is the link: https://alex.onb.ac.at/cgi-content/alex?aid=stv&datum=1917&page=15066&size=45

 

Regards

 

Christian

Edited May 29, 2021 by Christian1962

[hoh1851]

Many thanks for these information.

 

Reicher seems to be initially a Reserve officer in the 72th Hungarian Infantry Regiment before becoming an active Lieutnant with rank from 1st November 1909 in this Regiment. Promoted to captain with rank 1st May 1917 his wounding is not yet mentioned in the Austrian-Hungarian casulty lists. At least in 1933 he was involved with the Austrian Jewish frontsoldier association. In 1938 he is listed as a Lieutnant-Colonel in Vienna, Rennweg 102.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 29, 2021 by hoh1851

[Nicolas7507]

Very interesting thread, gentlemen!

 

I can contribute this ribbon bar to your discussion. No idea about possible identification?

 

Best regards

Nicolas

[Christian1962]

My first impression would be:

 

EK2 1914

Franz Joseph-Orden Ritterkreuz mit KD

Militärverdienstkreuz 3. Kl. mit KD.X

Silberne Militärverdienstmedaille am Bande des MVK

Bronzene Militärverdienstmedaille am Bandes des MVK

Karl-Truppenkreuz

Kriegsmedaille

Österr. Kriegserinnerungsmedaille 1914-18.X

Tiroler Landesdenkmünze (small ribbon along ÖKM.X)

Jubiläumskreuz 1908

Erinnerungskreuz 1912/13

Ungarische Kriegserinnerungsmedaille

Offizierskreuz des italienischen Kronenordens

 

I will try to find out candidates for that combination.

 

The rarest decoration here would be the Italien Order of the Crown. I made a look through all recepients which are listed in ÖBH-Schematismus 1937, but no match at all. I am sure there were more awards after the print of this Schematismus in 1937. He could have received it during his Wehrmacht service too....

 

I fear it will be hard to give this bar a name.

 

Regards

 

Christian

Edited June 14, 2021 by Christian1962

[Nicolas7507]

Thank you very much for the info, Christian!

 

Any chances the decoration at the end is an öster. Ehrenzeichen für Verdienste um die Republik? Probably unlikely, as the bar is post-1938, I guess.

 

Best regards

Nicolas

Edited June 14, 2021 by Nicolas7507

[Nicolas7507]

Hello, I agree with you regarding the Red Cross Honor Cross and a possible medical background.

 

I don't know, what the most likely award would be regarding the last ribbon.

 

I would have guessed, that we can rule out any Republic awards, as this type of ribbon bar construction is very likely post 1938.

 

 

Best regards

Nicolas

 

[Christian1962]

4 hours ago, Nicolas7507 said:

Thank you very much for the info, Christian!

 

Any chances the decoration at the end is an öster. Ehrenzeichen für Verdienste um die Republik? Probably unlikely, as the bar is post-1938, I guess.

 

Best regards

Nicolas

Nicolas,

 

wearing of republican Austrian orders (note: Ehrenzeichen/Verdienstorden) was strictly forbidden in TR, just war medal 1914 - 18 and long service crosses could be worn.

I am not sure about red cross decorations but that´s not very relevant because the were extreme sparly awarded to Bundesheer officers.

 

If someone would have worn a republic order on his ribbon bar against regulars then he would not have done thos on last position. Thet would not make any sense.

 

The ribbon would not match and grade of the Ehrenzeichen/Verdienstorden. Rosettes were not in use. Italian Order of the Crown is the best and most plausible match. Germand red cross Ehrenzeichen would have had a miniature cross instead of a rosette.

 

The bar is post march 1938 - Wehrmacht and not Bundesheer style.

 

I could find a Militärzeugverwalter Johann Pfeffer who became Wehrmachtbeamter in 1938. He owned:

 

Silberne Militärverdienstmedaille am Bande des Militärverdienstkreuzes

Bronzene Militärverdienstmedaille.X

Goldenes Verdienstkreuz mit der Krone.X

Karl-Truppenkreuz

Ehrenzeichen 2. Kl. vom Roten Kreuz.KD

Österr. Kriegserinnerungsmedaille 1914-18.X

Jubiläumskreuz 1908

Ritterkreuz des ital. Kronenordens

ungar. Kriegsmedaille

 

This is the best match but not 100 %. There would be missing one TK-ribbon and a second sword device.

 

Regards

 

Christian

 

Thi

2 hours ago, Triad08 said:

Hello.  The 8th WIDE ribbon is an imperial Austrian Red Cross Honor Cross, not the Tirol Commemorative.  This Red Cross ribbon has a very narrow Austrian War Commemorative ribbon wrapped around its left side.  And considering the candidate has a wartime FJO-Knight, he was probably a military surgeon.  This information about the candidate's medical background might help the search effort. 

 

Last ribbon: Either the Italian Crown Order Officer's Cross or the Ehrenzeichen vom Roten Kreuz (Officer) of the Austrian First Republic is the last narrow ribbon wrapped around the right side of the Hungarian ribbon.  I realize, the thin white margins are not present on the ribbon for the First Republic Red Cross award, but why would an Italian Crown Order Officer's Cross be mounted in the very last position?   Regards.

 

Yes, an Italien Orden would have been on last position anyway. I would not bet my collection on a red cross ribbon.

 

My problem is this small piece of ribbon between ÖKM.X and JK1908:

 

 

I would think it´s the Tyrolian commemorative medal 1914-18. An Austrian red cross decoration from WW1 would be before ÖKM.X and not after. But the Tyrol medal makes no difference here because they were not listed in ÖBH-Schematismus.

 

Regards

 

Christian

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Triad08 said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nicolas7507]

Thank you very much for the clarification and the additional info! 

 

Pfeffer sounds like a very good match. Did he receive a Pr. EK2 or MEZ?

 

Regarding the Tyrol/Red cross ribbon: I just cannot make out any green colour. I tried making a better photo, please have a look. 

 

Best regards

Nicolas

Edited June 14, 2021 by Nicolas7507

[Christian1962]

1 hour ago, Simius Rex said:

 

That is not a small piece of ribbon!  It is the right side of a Red Cross Ehrenzeichen ribbon! 

 

The ÖKM.X ribbon is covering the left side of the Red Cross ribbon. 

 

 

Yes, you are right. Same as EK12/13 is covering the JK1908.

 

Regards

 

Christian

 

 

1 hour ago, Simius Rex said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Nicolas7507 said:

Thank you very much for the clarification and the additional info! 

 

Pfeffer sounds like a very good match. Did he receive a Pr. EK2 or MEZ?

 

Regarding the Tyrol/Red cross ribbon: I just cannot make out any green colour. I tried making a better photo, please have a look. 

 

Best regards

Nicolas

 

The Tyrolian ribbon was a nonsense - sorry. It´s clear that it´s red cross WW1.

 

The problem is that the Schematismus is not very accurate. But there is missing too much. This is the reason why I am not happy with the match "Pfeffer".

 

It is possible that our guy did not serve in Bundesheer because he was dismissed in 1919/20 and called back to duty in 1938 as E-officer. He would have owned a 25-years service cross otherwise. So he would not be listed in any Schematismus. Hard to find.

 

It will remain an enigma....

 

Regards

 

Christian