Soviet Afghan Vets Group... or so I was told

[Hauptmann]

Hi all,

Meant to post this back when I put up my Soviet medal bars and such but got side tracked and this is the first chance I've gotten to put them up.

Was told this was a group to an Soviet Afghan vet... no idea if this is correct or not. The booklet has not been filled out so I don't even have a name.

This came from the same individual (went by DERK for selling purposes... can't remember his name as it was several years back) that I got those two Soviet medals bars from.

[Hauptmann]

Didn't know if the Red Star in this group was worth getting researched, perhaps to confirm if this is indeed a complete group to one individual.

[Hauptmann]

Oh, the Olympic badge and the other medal/badge to the top right were "not" in the original group... I just keep those in that riker mount... but everything else in the Riker as well as the booklet all came together as a "group". And the Lenin Centennial is the "military" version by the way.

Anyhow would appreciate any comments, info, etc.

Thanks,

Dan

[Paul R]

Nice Grouping... Any paperwork? The good news is that the mounting of this bar is correct!

Definate possiblity on being an Afgan vet, yet without paperwork...

Also, for all of the time he seems to have in, I would think that the Red Star would have been awarded for long service in this case

[Ed_Haynes]

Paul is right, it seems on the surface to be a plausible group. Without relevant completed documents (which, for that era, are so commonly faked!) it is hard to say much more. The fact that it has the "internationalist warrior" blank document and no others (which are harder to find blank or real) does not strike me as a good sign. Yet, without evidence, I guess it becomes a matter of belief?

[Stogieman]

Yes, but... the serial number of the Red Star falls into the 1950's range....

[Riley1965]

I have to agree. All of the medals and mountings look right. The lack of completed documentation is troublesome but Red star fits.

Doc

[Stogieman]

Hi Doc, the Red Star cannot fit to Afghanistan, its' serial number is solidly a 1950's award and simply cannot be a 1980 piece.

[Riley1965]

OOOPS!! My mistake, stogieman. I hoped that the ORS would shed light on this group.

Doc

[Riley1965]

Stogieman,

That's what I get when I try to go from memory instead of checking my chart of s/ns by year issued. Open mouth...insert foot!!!

Doc

[Paul R]

"Yes, but... the serial number of the Red Star falls into the 1950's range...."

There goes the Afgan grouping....

Still, a nice collection of medals.

[Riley1965]

So True . Here's the chart I should have referrenced.

Doc

Edited April 28, 2006 by Riley1965

[Stogieman]

Hi Doc, PM Rick Research... through the efforts of Ed Haynes & Rick, and Dave & etc., etc., etc. they have a running tally going of all documented pieces, serial numbers and award dates. Makes pretty good reference materials.....

[Riley1965]

Thanks Stogieman!!! I'll do that today.

Best,

Doc

[Paul R]

Thanks for posting that chart!!!

[Ed_Haynes]

I hoped that the ORS would shed light on this group.

I think the Red Star does shed light on the "group", and an ugly, sickly light it is.

[Guest Rick Research]

I would LOVE to know where these "charts" and SUPPOSED serial number by years lists are COMING from...

what I use is not some arbitrary and out of the air assertion of contract numbers or whatever the heck these are supposed to be, but actual observed original documented groups. I have noted CONSIDERABLE discrepancies over times from numbers and annual dates being quoted from sources unknown to me with what I have personally SEEN in Actual Real Individual Documented Groups.

Because something is in print does not make it TRUE.

The number on this Red Star is so close to one I have SEEN documented to 20 April 1953 as a long service award that I would say that it must have been part of the same mass 15 years service award Ukaz.

Definitely a 1953 Red Star tossed in for a "display" group.

[Riley1965]

Rick,

This list came from Shishkov & Muzalevsky's two volume book ORDERS AND MEDALS OF THE USSR 1918-1991.

Doc

[Guest Rick Research]

Never heard of it, never seen it, and don't know where they got THEIR numbers. If, like me, it is based on personal observation, then those are no better as rough-- VERY rough-- estimates than my OWN accumulating data base.

I've seen 1943 awards to 390,XXX

1944 awards to 1,093,XXX

1951 awards between 2,949,XXX and 3,008,XXX

and higher numbers in 1956 than those shown for... 1957.

just as examples.

I keep track of the numbers and complete dates one at a time.

[attachmentid=36802]

rather than a single number for 1954, I have the above as part of a range going to 3,290,XXX.

[Hauptmann]

Hi all,

Figured since several of you were kind enough to write and comment it would be easier to just write one reply at this point and save room for more discussion as this seems to be making some headway. But my deep and profound thanks to each one of you who took the time to check this out and send back info and comments.

Since this was another bunch from "Derk" I kinda had a feeling I'd once again not "luck out". No idea where he got the stuff from and it was before McDaniel's book and although he seemed to have some high end stuff that he was hanging on to he may have been as nearly in the dark as I was... a bit ahead but by the look of these "groups" not too much. At least I'd like to think he was not trying to take advantage of me. As they were in group deals and so long ago I don't remember exactly what I had in this stuff. Not much I suspect. This grouping for instance... if I'm correct and I take the individual pieces (retail) from say, Alexei's site here's what I come up with:

Red Star - $30 (if you think higher please let me know)

Lenin Centennial (Military) - $12

Soldier Internationalist medal with unfilled doc $15

Medal from grateful Afghan people - $8

50 years SAF's - $6

60 years SAF's - $4

70 years SAF's - $4

10 years service - $7

15 years service - $7

5 place suspension bar - $12

That totals $105... unless ya'll think any of it should be more... please let me know. Anyhow if that's the case... the sum of it's parts, I "think" I have about $75-100 in it in trade... and since I had dirt in the items I traded... I'm actually even more ahead of the game. The original price tag he had on it is still there and it was marked $110.

Oh, and I forgot the Riker mount so figure that in too. So I don't think I'm doing too bad, even though I'm disappointed that it doesn't appear to be a "group" per se.

At least it seems the bar is "okay" for what it is so I guess I'm ahead of the game on that... although whether or not it gives it any value other than the sum of it's parts you'll have to let me know.

But I'm very glad to see that it's sparked a good discussion as after all that's the important part of all this. We all learn.

Thanks and keep it going... I for one would love to learn more.

Dan

[Riley1965]

Rick,

I don't know where they came up with that chart. I was simply showing the chart from their book. Believe me I wish I had hard facts on the s/n by dates awarded. But, I don't. I have to rely on people like you and the reference books I have. Shishkov & Muzalevsky's two volume reference books are where the chart came from. I didn't mean to "ruffle any feathers".

Best,

Doc

[Guest Rick Research]

No feathers ruffled, just want everybody to be clear HOW and from WHERE I am getting MY numbers, as opposed to simply pulling them out of a hat and setting them in print as if chiselled on the Tablets Of The Law.

There are a LOT a screwy out of sequence numbers on Soviet awards, especially during the war. We have to be CLEAR on where any being cited come from...

and I prefer primary sources (my eyes on original stuff) over printed lists in books from unknown sources.

[order_of_victory]

Rick,

My Order of the Red Star is seriel number 3290518 issued in 1954 is it probable that this is a long service award?

[Guest Rick Research]

Not only WAS it for long service, it is almost certainly the Ukaz of 5 November 1954-- I've seen one only 181 numbers off from yours. I am laboriously retyping up my listed of dated serial numbers as a "pinned" thread and will get to the Red Stars eventually. Just finished OPW1s and headed down the precedence of awards scale....