EK 1939 1st Pattern Bar to EK2

[DavidM]

Hello

I have recently acquired this 1st pattern bar to the EK2. I'm afraid the scans aren't that good - it looks very much better 'in the hand' - but this is the best I can get with my scanner.

It measures 30.14mm across the top of the wings and 30.64mm from the base of the trapizium to the top of the eagles head. It is 1.65mm in thickness when measured at the wings. The wreath measures 12.69mm across. I haven't been able to weigh it as my scales aren't working.

I would be extremely grateful for members opinions on this item.

Many thanks.

[DavidM]

Anybody got any thoughts, good, bad or even indifferent about this piece ?

[Chris Boonzaier]

TomY has a nice 1st pattern, ask him to post it.

Best

Chris

[Ralph A]

Here's mine.

[Ralph A]

Reverse.

[Bob Hunter]

David, I would be concerned about the level of detail in your piece. The shape of the right wing, the detail in feathering, the size and shape of the eagle's head and the stipled background on the plinth would cause me to ask more questions. Also, I'm used to seeing flat rather than round wire prongs on the reverse.

Study Ralph's picture for comparison.

[DavidM]

Hello

Thanks for the replies so far.

Bob, I wondered about the round pins at first as like you I am used to seeing the flat pins, but I have found that some companies did indeed use these round pins. Since posting this I have been going through my reference books and searching the Internet and the most common maker using the round type pins is Boerger & Co, Berlin. They used the round pins throughout WW2 on their EK2 bars. Apparently the three types of pins encountered are the flat type with sharp points, the round type and the flat type with blunt ends. If you look in Gordon Williamsons book, 'The Iron Cross of 1939', pages 101 and 103 there two examples of Boerger bars with the round pins. I have also now found a couple of genuinely authenticated 1st pattern bars, (2 EK2 and 1 EK1), without any pebbling in the wreath behind the swastika and with some odd marks similar to the ones on mine.

It's a shame I can't get a decent scan of this because in the hand it is really nice. The more I've researched, the more convinced I am of it's originality - but I would still really welcome everyones opinion on it.

So please let me know what you think of it.

As an aside, this had three of it's pins intact when I got it. Normally I'd go into the study to examine an item like this but for various reasons I was looking at it in the living room. The phone rang and while I was talking I absent mindedly sat there holding the ribbon that the bar was on, twirling it between my fingers. The next thing my cat was on it, pulling at the ribbon and some how it managed to detach the lower pin. I don't blame the cat, I blame myself for doing such a stupid thing in the first place. Still, that's life ! The moral of the story is that shiny objects waving about don't mix with playful cats !!

Edited May 27, 2006 by DavidM

[Bob Hunter]

Yet another reason to own a Westie.

[DavidM]

And here is the 'culprit.

(sorry for going off topic)

Edited May 27, 2006 by DavidM

[dond]

Dave, besides the lack of detail as noted above it looks to be a good ond. Only you can tell if the stipling is good or not since we can't see it on the pics.

[DavidM]

Hello Don

Many thanks for that.

As I say in the hand it is much better than the scans, (I really think it may be time to replace my ageing scanner !). There is some wear in places to the silvered parts producing a super dual colour effect when viewed against the surrounding silvered surface.

I'm well aware that age, patenia, wear etc can all be faked but there is something about this one that says 'I'm the real item'. In the hand it looks right and feels right. I don't know if you if you know what I'm trying to say here, but with some of these items you can instinctively tell if it's good or bad. Anyway that, combined with my research have convinced me it's the real thing. Unusual and not maybe the prettiest bar around, but non the less genuine - well in my opinion.

[Richard Gordon]

David

I believe this is the type of spange that it is trying to be.

Rich

[Bob Hunter]

Now that is a fine specimen!

[Panzergrenadier]

I have seen this kind of debate before and as David's conclusion, the consensous was that it is a Boerger & Co, Berlin (L/57).

[DavidM]

Hello Panzergrenadier

Many thanks for your response. I am happy with the bar, and having been able to examine it in the hand I am convinced as to it's originality.

While on the subject of bars, perhaps you might take a look at another one that I posted in the following thread:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=9241

With this one there is doubt as to it's originality. The debate is around the maker mark on the back of it - which incidentally wasn't noted or mentioned by the dealer selling it. Mind you, the bar was so heavily caked in really heavy patina he probably couldn't see anyway.

Thank you.

[Panzergrenadier]

My pleasure David. I had read that discussion previously but I abstained to comment since it has been my experience that just because you have not seen something that does not necesarilly makes it a repro. That unless you are completely aware of the souce of the badge. However, on the L/12 you posted, I have not seen another example like that one previously. Since the spanges are such a thorny area of collecting, I would not mess with that one.

Edited July 25, 2006 by Panzergrenadier

[Edgar Estrada]

every day a learn more and more in this forum, thanks. Now, please could you tell me what a first pattern spange is? How many patterns were made? and what is the difference?

Thanks

Edgar

[Panzergrenadier]

every day a learn more and more in this forum, thanks. Now, please could you tell me what a first pattern spange is? How many patterns were made? and what is the difference?

Thanks

Edgar

They say a picture is worth a thousand words. Here is a compilation of pictures I have gathered acroos forums. Here are the pics of an 1-Early, 2-Prinzen, 3-Late in that order.

[Panzergrenadier]

Prinzen

[Panzergrenadier]

Late