Heer Ballonbeobachterabzeichen

[Avitas]

Hello gentlemen,

I know this has probably been discussed elsewhere, but I wondered if there was any news on the Balloon Observer badge and if it was actually issued in wartime. From what I have gathered it is still a mucky situation. Here is my badge which is a repro by an English maker in the 60's and 70's with the initials SBW (thanks for the info on the other post) for example. Any believed originals out there for discussion? Personally I think it is possible that it was awarded, but to likely under 100 people. Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Pat

[Avitas]

and the back with upside down BSW, SBW mark.

[PKeating]

To the best of my knowledge and that of people who actually spent time talking with veterans of Heer balloon observation units, no veteran of any balloon observer unit ever recalled being awarded one of these badges or seeing anyone else wearing one. Given the extremely hazardous nature of the job, the fact that these men considered themselves an ?lite and the additional consideration that being 'bounced' by enemy aircraft or having the balloon hit by enemy fire meant that one had to parachute from the balloon cage - a frightening experience, I can tell you, as one who has jumped from balloons quite a few times! - it is reasonable to conclude that such a badge would have merited an award ceremony and such a ceremony would have been recorded on film. Yet we have no photographic records nor any veteran-sourced testimony supporting the assertions by various dealers that these badges were awarded and worn by balloonists. I do not think the situation is likely to change, no matter how many attempts are made to change it with the help of Adobe Photoshop or faked-up documents.

PK

Edited July 5, 2006 by PKeating

[Chris Boonzaier]

I think it boils down to a bit of hearsay and if you believe in a handful of prototypes or not.

This is a discussion that has been had half a dozen times online with hundreds of heated posts...

However, there are always more and more collectors online... at some stage maybe one of them could provide something concrete.

There are some very advanced collectors with "prototypes" and they have paid big bucks for them... they now HAVE to believe. from the evidence so far, I choose not to.

[Robin Lumsden]

This is the nearest you'll get to an original Nazi balloon badge........

[Paul R]

This is the nearest you'll get to an original Nazi balloon badge........

Robin,

That is the funniest thing I have seen in a while! Thanks for making my day!

[Guest Kogenluft.]

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Hi,

This is the first time at GMIC and first Topic.I'm not used to work with computer and have to find out my way into it.I live in Belgium.

Can anyone give an opinion on my Ballonbeobachter badge in Bronze.

It is exactly the same as offered by Helmut Weitze (Hamburg) from the Jon.R. Angolia collection,some years ago.

Many thanks

Al

[Guest Kogenluft.]

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[dond]

Hello and welcome to the forum. To respond to a thread or add another picture/comment use the ADD REPLY button. That will keep all your posts in the same thread. Perhaps a moderator can combine these.

[Guest Darrell]

[attachmentid=46992]

Hi,

This is the first time at GMIC and first Topic.I'm not used to work with computer and have to find out my way into it.I live in Belgium.

Can anyone give an opinion on my Ballonbeobachter badge in Bronze.

It is exactly the same as offered by Helmut Weitze (Hamburg) from the Jon.R. Angolia collection,some years ago.

Many thanks

Al

The vast majority of collectors dont believe these were ever issued during the 3rd Reich era. No hard evidence of a badge being worn doesnt bode well either.

You would have to have some strong convictions and great belief in a future proof discovery to ever purchase one of these items.

[greg.hays]

Darrell has summed this one up pretty well.

[PKeating]

No proof that any badges were made before May 1945 and lots of anecdotal evidence from veterans that no member of a German balloon observation detachment ever received or wore such a badge although some people believe that nominal awards could have been made, if entries in paybooks are genuine. In any case, this badge is not suggestive of German workmanship. The eagle looks like a puffin. Certainly not one of the more convincing attempts I have seen. Some really well-made badges came out of England about twenty-five years ago and are far more 'dangerous' to inexperienced, gullible collectors than this one. How much did you pay for this badge?

PK

[Guest Kogenluft.]

Thanks PKeating ! I bought it for 2000 Euros (is about 2000 US dollars).It is exactly the same as sold some time ago by Helmut Weitze Milit?rische Antiquit?ten in Hamburg for about 3500 US Dollars.The Weitze badge came out of the collection of Jon R. Angolia and is also the same as in his book "For F?hrer and Fatherland"Military awards of the Third Reich.I bought my badge from the sister of Rudi Koch who was a luitenant Artillery Beobachter.Because of the many negative opinions I'm thinking to trade the badge.Thanks and best regards,Albert

[hankmeister]

Thanks PKeating ! I bought it for 2000 Euros (is about 2000 US dollars)

(...edit....).

Because of the many negative opinions I'm thinking to trade the badge.Thanks and best regards,Albert

You need to get your money back. You will have a VERY hard time trading this for something else worth 2000 euros.

Hank

[PKeating]

I do not doubt for one moment that it is the same as a badge sold by Weitze with an Angolia provenance attached! You have had an expensive lesson for ?2.000,00, which is about $2,500.00. You should take it back to the person who sold it to you and get a refund. It is possible that ex-Leutnant Koch acquired this badge sometime after the war as an example of the badge many balloon observers felt they should be been given and that his sister sold it to you in good faith but it is a $20.00 display item.

If you trade it, knowing that it is a fake, to someone who does not know that it is a fake, then that would not be very good. The fact is that this badge is a fake or, to be very precise, a bad rendition of a postwar fantasy piece based, so the story goes, on wartime drawings and a single, oversize studio pattern kept by the original designer after the war, whom Dr Kurt Klietmann interviewed.

PK

Edited July 17, 2006 by PKeating

[Ulsterman]

BY the way-Lt. Col. Angolia is here on this forum. He spends most of his time in the US area. You might pm him for verification and to see from whence he obtained the badge.

[Avitas]

To get back on topic, I am very surprised that there are not any true scientific means to properly date metals. You would think in this day and age SOMEONE would have invented a method or device by now, accurate to at least within 5 years either way! This device would be invaluable to all collectors, historians, archeaologists and anyone else who would like to know how old a specific metal is. I guess we will just have to wait till that technology evolves, and then there will be no debate on badges and medals (until someone figures out how to fake that!!). So, scientific community, where are you now with your modern day miracles?

Just a thought,

Pat

[Guest Darrell]

To get back on topic, I am very surprised that there are not any true scientific means to properly date metals. You would think in this day and age SOMEONE would have invented a method or device by now, accurate to at least within 5 years either way! This device would be invaluable to all collectors, historians, archeaologists and anyone else who would like to know how old a specific metal is. I guess we will just have to wait till that technology evolves, and then there will be no debate on badges and medals (until someone figures out how to fake that!!). So, scientific community, where are you now with your modern day miracles?

Just a thought,

Pat

One of the problems with the passage of time is the "natural" aging that occurs even on the good fakes. Whereas before, even if the hardware looked close, the patina (or lack thereof) would indicate a bad piece. Many of the fakes circulating around since the 1960's and 1970's, if close, have developed a "convincing" patina. It will only get worse with time.

[PKeating]

Not strictly true. I could show you original pieces that look as if they were made yesterday. It is usually a question of investing the time and effort in studying known originals, getting to know the diestruck characteristics like the back of your hand, and applying that dogma to pieces offered to you. Yes, some people will always be fooled by a bit of patina and a good story - like the stories pertaining to the so-called Rounder Knights' Crosses and "L/13 Meybauer" variants - but the Balloon Observer Badge is, luckily, quite a straightforward study subject: it never existed.

PK

[medalnet]

Closure on the Balloon Observer Badge