What badge is this on the General's tunic ?

[mravery]

Hello All,

Here is a picture of my friends great grandfather General Schlee-Pascha who was Generalinspekteurs der t?rkischen Feldartillerie 1914-1918.

He has identified all of the badges other than the little round one next to his IC 1st class. This picture is dated 1942 so we are not sure if it's a veterns badge or Turkish or ???

Any thoughts are apprecited.

Cheers

Mark

[Daniel Krause]

Nice portrait.

I think that little badge is either a Veterans badge or something Ottoman-related.

Is a closeup available?

Best regards

Daniel

[mravery]

Hey Big D

Nice to hear from you

Nope.. that's the best pic I have.. and when i blow it up it get's grainy...

Oh.. also.. on that other thing we discussed a couple of weeks ago....... no need..... we made other mailing arraigments with the guy in France.

Cheers

M

[derGeneral]

A really fantastic Picture Could you make a bigger scan from the unknow medal,please ?

[mravery]

A really fantastic Picture Could you make a bigger scan from the unknow medal,please ?

Sorry... it's the best pic I have of it.

[Daniel Murphy]

Mark,

Great photo. All that and no Pour le Merite? They must have figured he had enough jewelry. Was he a Wuerttemburger?, I see he wear his commanders cross of the Friedrich order with swords superior to everything else. That looks like a Knights Cross of the Max Joseph Order at the bottom, a low opinion of Bavarians or because it is only a knights cross?

[mravery]

Mark,

Great photo. All that and no Pour le Merite? They must have figured he had enough jewelry. Was he a Wuerttemburger?, I see he wear his commanders cross of the Friedrich order with swords superior to everything else. That looks like a Knights Cross of the Max Joseph Order at the bottom, a low opinion of Bavarians or because it is only a knights cross?

Hey Dan,

Yep.. he was a Wuerttenburger..... and nope.. not a Max Joey... this is what is funny about the picture.. that is his Knights badge for the Wuert. order of the Crown.. that he is wearing as a commanders badge....

I guess.. when your a Gen... and in 1942.. no one cares

Cheers

Mark

[Daniel Murphy]

Mark,

I think you are right. Upon cropping and blowing up the photo it does look like a Order of the Crown. It is slightly angled away so you cannot see the shape as well. I had thought that perhaps it was a Wuert. Military Merit Order but that is in 2nd place on the bar. Odd that he is wearing an unofficial veterans medal and no Honor Cross in 1942. Just too cheap (sorry..uh..frugal) to have a new bar made up. The Pin you were asking about does look Turkish. A crescent with a star at the bottom and superimposed on it is? Well it looks like a Lincoln penny.

Edited June 15, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[mravery]

Hey Dan,

Actually... your right .. I put the wrong thing.. it is his Knights badge of the Military Merit order that he is wearing as a commanders badge. Apparently there are other pictures of im wearing this award twice as well.

His awards (actually a representation of his awards) were posted earlier and here is a pic.

Edited June 15, 2006 by mravery

[Bob Hunter]

Herr General has taken neck orders to an entirely new level!

[Mark M]

Mark

I am curious about the tunic your great-grandfather is wearing. You said the photo is dated 1942, yet this is a Wurttemberg generals tunic he has on. Note the crown buttons, including the two on the sleeve cuffs, the red cap band, and the lack of any reichs adlers or wreath cockade on the cap. The lack of the HK cross also indicates pre 1934. Could this be a 1942 reprint of a early 20s photo?

Regards,

Mark

[mravery]

Hey Mark,

No.. I don't think so. If you look closely at the medal bar you can see the Hindeberg cross.. which means it's post 1934. He retired either right after WW1 or the early 20's so perhaps this is just a portrait shot.

Oh.. and unfortunatly.. this is NOT my great grandfather.. but rather a friend of mine.

Cheers

Mark

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Mark, is this a 'retirement photo'? Pin it all on and get a photo quick or did he wear all these awards as a practice?

[mravery]

Hey Brian,

To be honest.... I'm not sure....

In this earlier thread http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=5944&hl=schlee there are a few more pictures of him... and he appears to be 'decked out' in all of them.

For this specific picture... I would think that it was a 'get dressed up and take a picture'.

Dan.... I missed one of your commetns... yes.. I believe that it's the rare award of the "Cresent Lincoln Penny"

Cheers

Mark

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

With regard to the pin/badge originally in question, my first reaction was that it was a Galipoli Star, without the star; but Dan Murphy?s enhancement in post #8 eliminates that possibility. At the same time, I do not see a Galipoli Star in the original photo; but there is one in the display case with his other awards in post #9.

Perhaps this was pinned through what appears to be two pin loops on the horizontal plane just northwest of the EKI as seen in the enhanced photo. Sorry about the mystery pin/badge, someone will get it.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[Biber]

Note that the mystery medal appears to have the same design as the belt buckle in the picture of his awards that appeared in the earlier post.

B

Edited June 15, 2006 by Biber

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

I?m sorry but the more I look at this, I just can not reconcile the awards in post #8 with those in post #9. First, and most obvious is that the medal bar in post #9 has an HHOx and a POK4x, yet I don?t see any evidence of these in post #8. Plus, their placement on the bar strikes me as most unorthodox. Also, if he got the swords with the 4th class (it is on the war ribbon and I think that it has swords), should his 2nd class badge and star not have swords on ring?

I think that the fourth medal from the right (the big bright round one) in post #8 might be a Prussian Centenary medal which I imagine he would have. I don?t see any evidence of one of these in post #9. Also, recalling Neal O?Connor?s favorite story about those ?thrifty? W?rttembergers with regard to exchange of decorations, I would have expected that his Order of the W?rttemberg Crown knight?s badge would have been turned in when he got the officer?s cross - there may be some exemption in the regulations, I don?t know; but I do not see any evidence of the knight?s badge in post #8, nor do I see his Bavarian St. Michael.

Lastly, I find it interesting that for the occasion of this wonderful picture (really, it is a classic), he chose to wear the stars to his Ottoman orders rather than the German ones. Can some of our resident experts please take a moment and set me straight on the points I have raised here; I still have a lot to learn, especially when it comes to medal bars and groups.

Many thanks,

Wild Card

[mravery]

Hey WC,

Please keep in mind that the orders in post #9 are a 'representation' of his and NOT his actual awards (or original bar) as those were long since lost and my friend had this bar replicated from an earlier picture that he had of Schlee (hence no Hindenburg medal on the bar).

The St Michael is on the bar in #9 and in the picture in #8.. just hard to see.

Cheers

Mark

[Wild Card]

Hey WC,

Please keep in mind that the orders in post #9 are a 'representation' of his and NOT his actual awards (or original bar) as those were long since lost and my friend had this bar replicated from an earlier picture that he had of Schlee (hence no Hindenburg medal on the bar).

The St Michael is on the bar in #9 and in the picture in #8.. just hard to see.

Cheers

Mark

Hi Mark,

That explains it! And pretty darn good ?representation? it is. The points which I raised are pretty minor; and I hope that you understand my raising them. As I said, I have a lot to learn.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[mravery]

Hey WC

They were all great points

And from pictures and other bars I have seen..... there seems to be a lot of differences... especially AFTER 1918 as I think they could pretty much get away with anything.

I am surprised though that no one has ID'd the badge yet.... I would have figured that one of the 'twins' would have chimed in by now....

Cheers

Mark

[medalnet]

Mark,

I have several books on Turkish orers and medals at home. Will check over the weekend. I am sure it is Turkish. They had various badges like that one.

I will be back.

Andreas