The Ugliest PLM Ever!

[Stogieman]

Now this is a gross travesty:

[Daniel Murphy]

It looks like one of the hamburg fakes. However they were copied from a real PLM. I know the man who owns it.

Dan Murphy

Edited July 3, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[Kev in Deva]

Now this is a gross travesty:

Hallo Stogiemen

I propose it be known as the "PLM with woodpeaker head" Award

Kevin in Deva

[W McSwiggan]

Come on guys!

Don?t you know anything ? this is the extremely rare and expensive variant featuring the Imperial Pterodactyl! Bid now ? you may never see another at these prices?

Geez!

[Ramblinfarms]

Actually, it kind of looks like Woody Woodpeckers. So could this be the Prussian Peckerwood Award?

[Daniel Murphy]

..

Edited July 3, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

If on eBay and it goes for over 5,000, it must be real. We'll have to readjust our list of 'good ones'.

[Daniel Murphy]

Anything that looks like the onbe above must be fake right? Exactly like that, fake. This one, not fake. Probably Russian made c. 1814. Notice the less expensive enamel underneath the more expensive blue enamel. It belongs to an esteemed member of this forum who requests to be anonymous. This photo was lying out and was gotten at by my dog, this is the best I can do. (ah, the old dog ate your homework story eh.)

Dan Murphy

Edited July 3, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[Daniel Murphy]

Reverse showing all four "woodpeckers" and some poorly repaired damage.

Dan Murphy

Edited July 3, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[Ramblinfarms]

So you are saying Russian jewelers did private purchase Prussian Awards? Are there Russian made 1813 EKs, too? That can be documented as Russian? I'd love to see 'em.

Bah ha ha -ha ha! Bah ha ha-ha ha.

Brtrtrtrtrtrtrrtrtrtrtrtrtrtrtrtrtrtrtrtrtr!

[Daniel Murphy]

Quite a number of Pour le Merites were awarded to Russian officers during the Napoleonic Wars and yes, Russian jewelers did make replacement pieces for those officers during that period. They mainly used crowned eagles which they thought was proper, but these are supposed to be Brandenburg eagles, not Prussian ones. We are not talking WW1 here, this is the very early 19th century. Russia was an ally of Germany during the time of 1790's to 1815. Look it up or find a book on the war. I will help you out, here is the list of PLMs awarded in May (and May only) of 1813. There are a couple Russian names there. With so many Russians receiving it, there was a good demand for replacements to the easily damaged early crosses. Naturally some Russian Jewelers helped fill that demand with items such as you see in my post above.

Siegfried Georg Gebhard von Quitzow ? 13 May 1813

Dmitri Tichonovich Michailovch Parenssov ? 13 May 1813

Prince Peter Dmitriovich Gortshakov I ? 13 May 1813

Renatus Rodion Fedorovich Gerngross ? 13 May 1813

Gustaf Gustafovich Staden ? 13 May 1813

Alexander Ivanovich Markov III ? 13 May 1813

Ivan Hirsch ? 13 May 1813

Igor Fedorovich Noldken ? 13 May 1813

Semen Ivanovich Dobrovolski ? 13 May 1813

Peter Ivanovich Medviedev ? 13 May 1813

von? Hoeck ? 13 May 1813

Vranizki ? 13 May 1813

Robert Igorovich Renni ? 13 May 1813

Nikolai Ivanovich Seliavin ? 13 May 1813

Pavel Ivanovich Brosin ? 13 May 1813

Nikolai Vassilieovich Sasonov ? 13 May 1813

Alexander Andreieovich Stsherbinin ? 13 May 1813

Igor Michailovich Trubtsheninov ? 13 May 1813

Nikolai Jevgienovich Postelnikov ? 13 May 1813

Vladimir Afanasseovich Obrutshev ? 13 May 1813

Alexei Igorovich Dedeniev ? 13 May 1813

Maxim Konstantinovich Krishanovich ? 13 May 1813

Peter Iavanovch Medviedev ? 17 May 1813

Ivan Ivanovich Schl?? 17 May 1813

Ivan? Oserski ? 17 May 1813

von Aderkas ? 17 May 1813

Alexander Iljit Iljinski ? 17 May 1813

Prince Drulski-Sakolinski ? 17 May 813

Siegismund Ferdinandovich Postels ? 17 May 1813

Vassili? Klemens? Behrends ? 17 May 1813

Franz Danilovich Olshevski ? 17 May 1813

Karl Petrovich Gutjahr ? 17 May 1813

Anton Jevstafieovich Engelhart ? 17 May 1813

Alexander Wilhelm von Neidhardt II ? 18 May 1813

Georg Wilhelm von Hofmann ? 18 May 1813

Andrei Ivanovich Liebstein ? 18 May 1813

Stepan Jemelianovich Ivanov ? 18 May 1813

Bogdan Jakovleovich von Brieskorn ? 18 May 1813

Freiherr Peter Johann von L?ausen ? 18 May 1813

Karle Ivanovich Raben ? 18 May 1813

Hans Otto Wachten ? 18 May 1813

Fedor Fedorovich von Kurssel ? 18 May 1813

Lev Astafieovich Astaiev ? 18 May 1813

Leopold von Mach II ? 18 May 1813

Afanassi Jefimovich Stshelkan ? 18 May 1813

Christof Josef Friedrich von Michaelis ? 27 May 1813

Karl Friedrich von Tiele ? 27 May 1813

Karl Friedrich Franz Dallmer ? 27 May 1813

Heinrich Gottlieb Konrad Heuduck ? 27 May 1813

August Johann Ludig Elias Friedrich Karl von Hobe ? 27 May 1813

Johann David Ludwig von Yorck ? 27 May 1813

Dan Murphy

Edited July 3, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Seems entirely reasonable Dan. It would take some real documentation to back up the claim. Also, I wouldn't expect to see more than one of any 'type' as these would have been I would think 'one offed' as the demand would have been very small, so I'd expect a jeweler piece to be unique. Certainly the possibilities are there.

[Ramblinfarms]

Can someone post a picture of a Brandenburg Eagle from the Freedom War era?

Your story does make sense. Before the rise of the Prussian Empire, I had always found it fascinating to see which various German states fought with whom. Saxony fought for the French. Prussia changed sides after Napoleon's "defeat" at Moscow and subsequent retreat. Quite remarkable.

That first PLM sure is ugly, though. The Crown is horrible without even getting into the eagles.

Were Russians awarded the EK? I know they received the Kulm Cross, but did the Prussians consider it a "real" EK? And I cannot see some Russian General putting a painted piece of tin on his dress uniform. There must have been jeweler made "improvements."

[Ramblinfarms]

Didn't Brandenburg become part of the Prussian Kingdom in 1701 or 1707? I know the Red Eagle Order was originally a Brandenburg Order, adopted and incorporated by the Prussians.

[W McSwiggan]

A quick look at the heads of the house of Hohenzollern indicates that John Sigismund - Margrave of Brandenburg, inherited the Duchy of Prussia 1618. This was the point at which the two entities became one.

Didn't Brandenburg become part of the Prussian Kingdom in 1701 or 1707? I know the Red Eagle Order was originally a Brandenburg Order, adopted and incorporated by the Prussians.

[Les]

Seems entirely reasonable Dan. It would take some real documentation to back up the claim. Also, I wouldn't expect to see more than one of any 'type' as these would have been I would think 'one offed' as the demand would have been very small, so I'd expect a jeweler piece to be unique. Certainly the possibilities are there.

The PlMs from that period are a "seat of the pants" kind of thing when considering buying one. They lack the general consistency of ones made for example, after the 1860's. Considering how much handwork goes into making one from this period, and for example, the hand applied lettering, proclaiming one of these as good/bad can be "iffy" at best. There are things to look for with regards to the type of period work involved, materials used and construction techniues, but even if all of the details are right, that doesn't mean the item is real or not.

Consider how dangerous buying an 1813 era EKI or EKII is, and look at the state of the art with regards to fakes. The more the amount of handworkmanship that goes into making a period piece, the easier it may be to make a fake....

During the Napoleonic era, -numerous- PlMs were handed out to Prussians, German allies, Russians, and others who were on the "winning side." That being said, I'm not so sure the piece Dan posted was made -during- the War of Liberation (1813-1815), but after the war.

Edkins (and a few others) claim the Russians made copies of the PlM and used crowned eagles. What Edkins and those making those statements don't provide however, is names of Russian jewelers who made them.

I'm with Brian on this, that documentation is very important with regards to making claims that pieces are this or that, especially with regards to hand made pieces from this era and the lack of standardization in worksmanship, materials, etc.

Les

[Ulsterman]

Can someone post a picture of a Brandenburg Eagle from the Freedom War era?

Your story does make sense. Before the rise of the Prussian Empire, I had always found it fascinating to see which various German states fought with whom. Saxony fought for the French. Prussia changed sides after Napoleon's "defeat" at Moscow and subsequent retreat. Quite remarkable.

That first PLM sure is ugly, though. The Crown is horrible without even getting into the eagles.

Were Russians awarded the EK? I know they received the Kulm Cross, but did the Prussians consider it a "real" EK? And I cannot see some Russian General putting a painted piece of tin on his dress uniform. There must have been jeweler made "improvements."

Prussia gave half-hearted help at best in 1812. The Austrians gave a little more. Most of the rest of Germany had troops in Russia in 1812. The Bavarians and Badeners were especially good.

Having said that, a significant and important group of senior Prussian officers went and fought for the Russians in 1811-12, refusing to kneel to Napoleon. These men, who were originally outcasts were almost all reformers-and very able commanders. Almsot all of them had heaps of allied honours by 1814 after Prussia declared war in early 1813.

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Thanks Les, getting one documented I think would be only half the battle. I would think they were one-offed making another one similar in technique but not the same. Unlikely to my simple mind that they would all have come off one Russian die and possess exact characteristics.

[Wild Card]

So you are saying Russian jewelers did private purchase Prussian Awards? Are there Russian made 1813 EKs, too? That can be documented as Russian? I'd love to see 'em.

Bah ha ha -ha ha! Bah ha ha-ha ha.

Brtrtrtrtrtrtrrtrtrtrtrtrtrtrtrtrtrtrtrtrtr!

It's not Prussian, but would a Hannoverian St. George star

[Wild Card]

properly hallmarked by Keibel be of help?

[Daniel Murphy]

It is me or is that motto in Cyrillic??? Sweet!! . The copying of one countries decorations by another countries jewelers is nothing new. Look at the Iron Crosses made by Rothe in Vienna, or the Turkish War Medals and pilots badges made by German jewelers such as Meybauer or Godet. Some may be one of a kind like the PLM above or cranked out in the hundreds. Another example is the English made copies of the Turkish medal for service in the Crimea in the 1850's. The reasons may be to have a better than issue quality piece or as a replacement for a damaged issue piece. Whatever the reasons were, it was done quite often.

Let's say you are in St. Petersburg in 1850 and at some point you were awarded , say, an English order. Some time later it fell off your uniform while you were on horseback and landed on a cobblestone street and was badly damaged. You then to mail a letter to England enclosing the damaged medal and requesting a replacement. If the letter or the medal (on the return trip) does not get lost, it will be weeks or months before you receive it. If the mail ship gets caught in a storm in the English Channel and goes down, you are just out of luck. It is much cheaper and quicker to take your damaged medal/order to a local jeweler and have him fabricate a copy for you.

Dan Murphy

Edited July 4, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[Wild Card]

No Dan, it's not you - it's a lousy picture. I have cleaned it up a bit and focused in on the detail. The difficulty with this one is that the center medallion is so convex that the light reflection presents real problems.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

To illustrate Dan?s point - ?The copying of one countries decorations by another countries jewelers is nothing new? - here is a Brunswick Henry the Lion grand cross star made by a British (most likely London) jeweler for the Duke of Cambridge.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

All perfect examples of perfect examples of original period awards but none of which places the first PlM in Russia prior to 1938. I would think a Russian museum would have examples of awards to at least validate the premise that these were ever made in Russia in any form.

[VtwinVince]

A bit of remedial Prussian history is in order here. Brandenburg came into its' own under the Great Elector, who finally booted out the Swedes at the Battle of Fehrbellin in 1685. In 1701 Elector Friedrich III was crowned "Koenig in Preussen", or King in Prussia, at Koenigsberg, thus establishing the Hohenzollerns as the dynastic ruling house of Prussia. Prussia was never, ever, an ally of Napoleon. My father is turning in his grave at this suggestion. The country was occupied after the disaster at Jena and Auerstaedt in 1806, and many Prussians, including one of my ancestors, were press-ganged into service in the Grande Armee for the 1812 campaign in Russia. It took the "Voelkerschlacht", or Battle of the Nations at Leipzig to finally turn the tide against the French.