EK 1870 1870 EK 1 Tis, Tis Not!, Tis! Tis Not!,

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Gentlemen

Opinions sought on this offering:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Iron-Cross-1870-1st-...1QQcmdZViewItem

Kevin in Deva.

Edited July 2, 2006 by Kev in Deva

[Daniel Murphy]

Kevin,

I believe it to be an original cross, but the pin and hinge appear to have been replaced at some time. AS such I do not believe it is worth the price asked. I do not believe the 1813 EK2 he has for sale is real. It looks like like shaved 1914. Usual poor fuzzy photos of that one.

Dan Murphy

1813 EK2

[Tom Y]

I don't know enough about 1870 EKI's to form a solid opinion, but the core, especially the "8' doesn't match any of mt EKII's. The seller seems to be a goldmine of misinformation, too. "For an unknown reason the decorations were very much smaller, however they are larger than the 'Prinzen' size."

His 1813 seems to be the ultrarare "peachskin" type

Is NEF a misspelling of naff?

Edited July 2, 2006 by Tom Y

[joe campbell]

i am inclined to agree with dan...

the hinge/pin on the EK 1 are replaced, which in and of itself

is not a problem for me.

the EK 2 on the other hand is an altered 1914.

rather nicely done, but not legitimate nevertheless.

joe

[gregM]

Isn't this cross one of the ( 9th bead ) crosses. There has been a lot of discussion as to

wheather or not those are original crosses. To the best of my recollection that debate has

not been settled.

Is it me or does the oak leaves on the 1813 have the bent stem like the 1914s instead of the

straight stem more commonly seen on 1813s?

Just my 2 cents,

Greg

[Biro]

Yes this is the 'glowing 9th bead' cross.....

...and therefore, not one for me.

The hybrid "is it an I is it a J"? version of the maker mark is also contentious to say the least... if you want a Wagner piece Kevin (and they are EXTREMELY scarce) then my suggestion would be you find one with a mark exactly like this...

[attachmentid=45738]

Alternatively, Weitze has a beautiful Godet, but wants a little too much for it.

JMO..

Marshall

[Kev in Deva]

Yes this is the 'glowing 9th bead' cross.....

...and therefore, not one for me.

The hybrid "is it an I is it a J"? version of the maker mark is also contentious to say the least... if you want a Wagner piece Kevin (and they are EXTREMELY scarce) then my suggestion would be you find one with a mark exactly like this...

[attachmentid=45738]

Alternatively, Weitze has a beautiful Godet, but wants a little too much for it.

JMO..

Marshall

Hallo Gents thank you for your useful and informative input, looks like I will pass on it and save my money for another day, again many thanks

Kevin in Deva

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Gentlemen

Just receieved the follwing from the seller in request for better pictures, and its only fair to add them here;

Hi,

As requested please find clearer pictures of the 1813 Iron Cross also we show pictures comparing the 1813 and the 1914 Iron Cross clearly showing the difference between the 2 showing that this is indeed not a converted 1914 Iron Cross 2nd Class.With regards to size the Cross actually measures the correct size for 1813 39mmx39mm what we are saying is that the silver frame is smaller than the earlier 1813 Iron Crosses however on looking at the Iron Time book the bible of Iron Crosses the frame on some of the early ones look very similar to the one we are offering on ebay so as we say it is all a matter of opinion we state this is made in the 1870 period however could well be earlier and a Cross of the period.Hope this clarifies everything for you and if you bid on this item good luck in your bidding.

Best Regards,

Malcolm Gordon

Email: malcolm@cocollector.co.uk

Mobile: 0976266293

GORDONS MEDALS LTD.

G14-15, Grays in the Mews

1-7 Davies Mews

Davies Street London

W1K 5AB. UK

Tel: + 44 (0) 20 7495 0900

Fax: + 44 (0) 20 7495 0115

Web: http://www.cocollector.co.uk

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Gentlemen

Just receieved the follwing from the seller in request for better pictures, and its only fair to add them here;

Hi,

As requested please find clearer pictures of the 1813 Iron Cross also we show pictures comparing the 1813 and the 1914 Iron Cross clearly showing the difference between the 2 showing that this is indeed not a converted 1914 Iron Cross 2nd Class.With regards to size the Cross actually measures the correct size for 1813 39mmx39mm what we are saying is that the silver frame is smaller than the earlier 1813 Iron Crosses however on looking at the Iron Time book the bible of Iron Crosses the frame on some of the early ones look very similar to the one we are offering on ebay so as we say it is all a matter of opinion we state this is made in the 1870 period however could well be earlier and a Cross of the period.Hope this clarifies everything for you and if you bid on this item good luck in your bidding.

Best Regards,

Malcolm Gordon

Email: malcolm@cocollector.co.uk

Mobile: 0976266293

GORDONS MEDALS LTD.

G14-15, Grays in the Mews

1-7 Davies Mews

Davies Street London

W1K 5AB. UK

Tel: + 44 (0) 20 7495 0900

Fax: + 44 (0) 20 7495 0115

Web: http://www.cocollector.co.uk

Maybe the seller should have put some of these photos on the original auction page!!

Kevin in Deva

Edited July 3, 2006 by Kev in Deva

[Stogieman]

If that 1813 is fake, it's one of the best I've seen yet... the core "grain" looks like a ca. 1870-1895 one... ??????????

[Gordon Williamson]

Isn't that the "Z" (or "N") maker stamp on the ring of the 1813 cross ?

[Daniel Murphy]

Gordon,

Yup, sure is. My vote is for an N. For the information value, here is an 1813 EK2 I bought many years ago. I now believe it is a fake similar to the above, though not as well done. Notice how uneven the edge of the frame is where it has been ground away unevenly.

Edited July 3, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[Daniel Murphy]

Fake part 2.

[Daniel Murphy]

And the most telling pic. Notice how the edges are rounded and the beading is worn down on the sides of the beaded edge.

[JimZ]

Not really my field - Very crisp polished silver for an 1870 and the rust could be a lovely touching touch. No other apparant markings. Tis? Tis Not? Tis? Tis Not?........My guess Tis Not? Gentlemen......

[joe campbell]

just for the record...

the '14 EK 2 came with a WIDE

variety of weights and measurements.

i have a long ago published article

nicely demonstrating this phenomenon,

and will scare it up.

jimzammit - i'm afraid 'tis not....

joe

[ekhunter]

Not really my field - Very crisp polished silver for an 1870 and the rust could be a lovely touching touch. No other apparant markings. Tis? Tis Not? Tis? Tis Not?........My guess Tis Not? Gentlemen......

Tis the so-called "Latvian" made cross. Probably made in eastern Europe somewhere. Made in the last few years.