New Club Hosts

[Gordon Williamson]

I'm pleased to welcome two new club hosts with whose names many of you will be familiar.

Bob Coleman will be hosting this new section for the SS, Police and Paramilitary organisations as well as Third Reich Political and Civil Awards where a welcome message has already been posted with some details of Bob's interests.

In this section, Bob will be aided by Don Bible, probably the worlds greatest authority on Police and Gestapo Warrant discs and the author of numerous publications on the subject. Don also has an excellent website on the subject at http://users.adelphia.net/%7Edonbible/

In his own words, Don describes how he became interested in this fascinating subject.

"A few days ago I had my 70th birthday. My interest in WWII militaria and my first items acquired, goes back 60 of those years. When my three uncles returned from the European Theater in 1946, each of them gave me a few German pieces that they brought home with them. One of my uncles went into the army in 1942, and was in the invasion of North Africa. He gave me a couple of small pieces brought from there.

Then as I grew up other interests became more important to me, and the military collecting took a back seat for a few years, although I often read WWII articles, and often worked with and talked with veterans. The former soldiers always held a special place in my heart because of my affection for my own three uncles. One of those uncles is still living today. He turned 90 years-old this year.

Then in 1966...20 years after I first got the militaria collecting bug...I went to Germany as a civilian employee for an American company, working with the American Army. I was sent to the German town of Kaiserslautern to work. The city is located in the Palatinate, in the German State of Rheinland/Pfalz. My wife and I loved the area, and made a lot of friends, both German and American.

We had a German landlord as we lived on the German economy. He was a veteran of the Eastern front. We became good friends. He helped me through many of the problem areas that foreigners always face when dealing with an unfamiliar culture. To be sure, there were some problems, but the adventure of living in this new land far more than made up for the few inconveniences.

I arrived in Germany in November of 1966, just as winter was beginning. I soon noticed the German police winter uniforns and their similarity to German WWII uniforms. It was almost like being transported three decades back in time. I was fascinated with the German police....especially the Kripo. They often were called on to help the American MPs deal with altercations in the area of the GI bars, called the "Iron Triangle" near the Kaiserslautern Bahnhof.

The sight of a German criminal police detective flashing a "Dienstmarke" (warrant disc) on a chain, was a new and curious experience for me. I suppose it was there that I first became fascinated with warrant discs. I later learned that this was an old police custom, that had been utilized by German police detectives for well over a century....including the German Secret State Police (Geheime Staatspolizei or GESTAPO) of World War II infamy.

I never acquired a police warrant disc while living in Germany, because I never saw one for sale, but I always remembered them, after returning home to Tennessee a few years later. Every now and then in the early 1970s, I would see a "Gestapo" warrant disc for sale at a gun show, but the quality never seemed to be what I expected from the German workmanship, I had come to admire.

I finally decided that I was going to educate myself about the German Police warrant discs. I read everything I could find on the subject....which was very little. I talked with many militaria collectors, and got a different answer from almost every one. Later, I realized that one or two of them had been on the right track, but at the time I didn't know which ones they were.

I began correspondence with two or three branches of the German State Archives. Most of the time my inquiries were patiently answered. Finally I learned of a couple of German Police historians who were also collectors of warrant discs. I had learned to speak, read and write a token amount of the German language during the time I lived there, and it now came in very handy.

One German Kripo detective took me under his wing and gave me a lot of pointers in how to recognize an original warrant disc. Later I found an American collector or two, who had a few original pieces. They too, were still seeking more knowledge and we began comparing notes. They helped me, and I helped them.

In 1988, I took early retirement, which gave me a lot more time to devote to my research. I became a member of the "Deutsche Gesellschaft f?r Polizeigeschichte e. V. (German Police Historical Society). That organization opened a lot of doors for me in Germany. I soon began taking trips to Germany at every opportunity. I made many friends among the German police members of the association.

Some of the higher ranking members who had authority to do so, took me into areas that would have otherwise been closed to me. I visited a German Police training academy, where the director arranged for a long-time employee to translate documents for me. He was a Britisher who had married a German lady shortly after the war, and had become a 40 year employee of the German Police training academy. The director of the academy invited me to spend time with him as a house guest of he and his wife.

A German Kripo detective friend took me to his home where I visited him on two occasions over the years. He had a great collection of German Police warrant discs which he allowed me to handle for hours on end. He later took me to the German Customs Museum where I was given the same privilege.

The token amount of German that I manged to learn in the mid-1960s has paid off handsomely for me over the last 40 years. It has enabled me to visit and interview the widow and son of a member of the Gestapo, and acquire many photos and personal documents that belonged to him. It has also made it possible for me to carry on an interesting and lengthy correspondence with the son of another Gestapo operative. I have owned the Gestapo warrant discs of the fathers of both of those men.

I consider myself very blessed to have been able to visit these people and places and to have learned a small part of what there is to know about German Third Reich era police warrant discs and ID cards.

I will try to use that knowledge to help fellow collectors to avoid the pitfalls of the many counterfeit pieces in this esoteric field of collecting."

I'm sure you will all join in extending Don a warm welcome to GMIC.

[Rosenberg]

Welcome,Don!

Kindest Regards

[Bob Hunter]

Welcome, Don! You bring a lifetime of experience to the group.

[J Temple-West]

I heard the good news, and good news it is.

[Paul R]

Welcome, Don!

[Scowen]

Welcome aboard!

Cheers

(The other) Don

[Nick]

Certainly is excellent news to have both these new knowledgeable additions to the club.

[Don Bible]

Thanks Nick, Gordon, John, Paul, Don, Rosenberg, and Bob, for the words of welcome. I hope to be of some small assistance to members here who have, or develop an interest in the narrow field of my knowledge, which is the warrant discs and ID cards of the Third Reich era German Secret State Police (Gestapo), Kripo and Zoll (Customs) officers.

Many years ago, I fortunately...or unforunately became involved in a niche of our hobby where counterfeits, reproductions and fantasy pieces almost certainly outnumber the originals in far greater numbers than probably any other field of Third Reich collecting. In writing this however, I don't want newcomers to the hobby to be discouraged....just be very careful. I promise you it is an interesting and rewarding field of research and collecting. I am still as fascinated by it today as I was 20 years ago...and fortunately a bit more knowledgeable. The school of experience in this field can be very costly...and lonely.

The best advice I know to give anyone who is thinking of "testing the waters" in this field of collecting, is to deal with reputable dealers or collectors. A mistake can easily be made, and being able to get your money returned is of paramount importance.

Always ask for a reasonable inspection period on any warrant disc you buy, with a guarantee of full return of your money if it doesn't check out. Then post good close-up scans of both sides on this forum. We will make every effort to help you properly determine the authenticity of any Third Reich era German warrant disc.

Certainly is excellent news to have both these new knowledgeable additions to the club.

[Great Dane]

Thank you for the fascinating "How it all began" story. It's an area that I admit I know absolutely nothing about.

Are there any "How to tell the originals from the fakes" books out there?

/Mike

[Don Bible]

Thank you for your kind words. I will try to answer your question without becoming commercial. I had expected that this subject would come up, and have wondered a little how to handle it. I must confess that I didn't expect it so quickly.

Quite frankly, I know of very little ever written on the subject in the past sixty years, which to me is rather surprising. In retrospect, I suppose that is why I made my first stab at trying to publish something 15 years ago.

In 1991 I wrote my first small self-published booklet about the discs with some tips about how to distinguish the fakes from the originals. Fortunately all the tips still hold true I think, but others have been learned. Later three other books were self-published on the subject between 1993 and 2000.

In 2001, SCHIFFER PUBLISHING LTD, published my book "Third Reich Warrant Discs.....1934-1945." as a part of its Military History Book series. That book pretty much sums up the information that was known to me at the time.

I have written a few collector magazine articles on the subject of counterfeit warrant discs...most notably the excellent quality fake pieces that appeared in Europe and the U.S. in 1994-95. Those articles appeared in MAX Gazette, Military Trader, and in two issues of The Armourer, published in the UK. Military Advisor also once published one of my articles on the warrant discs several years ago.

In 2005, I self-published another book on the subject, but focused more on my experience in acquiring a few of the Gestapo discs I have owned.

If any further information is needed about any of the books, please send me a PM. I don't want to abuse my membership here by coming across as a book salesman. Here, I hope to be able to help others avoid some of the minefields that are found in this part of collecting, and hopefully to meet some fellow collectors in the police warrant disc hobby.

Thank you for the fascinating "How it all began" story. It's an area that I admit I know absolutely nothing about.

Are there any "How to tell the originals from the fakes" books out there?

/Mike

[Great Dane]

Thanks for the 'pointers'. I understand your concern about not being a book salesman.

I'm not planning a collection in this area - just being curious. Knowledge is power, and it's always nice to be able to tell an original from a copy

/Mike