3 Place Ribbon bar

[ccj]

Here's a nice 3 place ribbon bar with a Prussian and a Saxon Duchy connection.

Is this for an officer or NCO?

Does anyone know what unit this man would have served?

[saschaw]

Lovely war time bar and I'm pretty sure to an junior officer. A NCO with two state awards I'd assume to have a long service award. Comparing the principal Hohenzollern to the SEHO rolls brings hims up. The rolls are available...

:P

[Guest Rick Research]

I love them when they are easy. Mark up your copies of the Rolls, Charles:

Leutnant Bernd/t von Kleist (1896-19??) of 1. Garde Regiment zu Fu?. Son of Generalleutnant Friedrich von Kleist (1858-1917) and Ella n?e von Puttkamer. Bernd/t was so badly wounded at the battle of Ypres in 1914 that his left leg had to be amputated-- explaining the entry on his HEK3X award "sent to his Lady Mother...." Later recalled for service as a Wehrmacht (E) officer. Will have to sort out his rank dates etc but you'll have both award dates in the Rolls-- HEK3X and EH3bX. The loss of his leg explains why he was in the Replacement Battalion. His brother Friedrich-Karl also served in 1. GRzF.

Daniel very likely has his photo from somewhere, since he has noted award of an EK1.

Congratulations!

(For people wondering what USE the Krause/Lundstr?m WW1 award rolls books are.... )

[ccj]

Thanks Sascha...

Rick, how'd you do that so fast? I have the rolls (5 books)

but how can you cross referenc ALL the names against the Ernestine. That's over 900 names right? You much have them listed electronically to do this.

You almost make me feel bad about myself because i can't formulate a method for researching these books. I only have 5, I must have been left out of the second round of books...

[ccj]

Okay, now I'm getting confused. How do you know v Kleist didn't receive additional awards?

Now remember, I'm from Arkansas.

[Guest Rick Research]

:unsure: I make pencilly notes of Odd Combinations. These ARE new books, MADE for that... and besides ... I wrote 'em so I can do whatever I want.

He was back at the depot on one leg. There's nobody else with that pair and nothing else so by process of elimination-- since it CANNOT have been anyone ELSE... must be him.

From the 1921 Heldengedenkblatt, showing his wound, siblings, parents-- and let's not forget Gro?vati was a General, too:

Bernd/Berndt (the name is spelled both ways inconsistently) was commissioned

Leutnant 28 January 1915

He appears in the 010117 Seniority List but NOT in the 010118-- probably received a medical discharge.

Daniel has him as Hauptmann (E) 1934, from which the following

[Guest Rick Research]

October 1937 Stellenliste. Still in same job January 1939:

Glenn discovered this (and the below) and I am trying to convince him to sell CDs to the Non-Gnome Population. :cheers:

[Guest Rick Research]

May 1940 Seniority List for (E) retread officers (assignments are pre-war, never changed for security)

Major (E) --

There are no indices for the wartime lists, which involves searching through ALL the pages to find anybody.

[Guest Rick Research]

May 1943 Seniority List. After the former (E) officers were assigned (mostly) to the "(S)" List from October 1941 on, "troop officers" were listed in the "(T)" list-- which is what this is here.

I can only assume, from the regulations, that due to the severity of his WW1 wound, he was given (T) status rather than (S)

Oberstelutnant (T) --

He was also promoted to

Oberst (T) 1 October 1943 #1a

My other "trick" that you have to remember is... I have spent 30+ years flipping Rank Lists. Then I spent two years typing out every single blessed one of those hundred thousand+ WW1 award entries... so things "stuck" in my brain. What Daniel can do with faces from photos, I do with awards combinations. Wish I could make money gambling but my memory doesn't work that way!

:catjava:

[ccj]

Where is the EKI note that you refer to by Daniel?

I have the notes now in both books referencing the other book and details. Also note the I OWN RIBBON BAR!!!! Yeah!!!!

If all of these were listed in excel or word I think finding everything would be easier.

Ricky, when are you putting out the 6th and further volumes

Edited April 19, 2009 by ccj

[Daniel Krause]

:rolleyes: sources...sources...sources...

[Daniel Krause]

[

[Paul R]

This is definitely his pre-1934 bar. He would have picked up a HKmS. Any other clues as to what else he may have earned during WW2? Since he was placed in the T status, would he have been paid or even worn a uniform?

[Guest Rick Research]

(T) was for "Truppenoffiziere"-- frontline officers, or given that status. The (S) list was for the rear area types. He'd have had Wehrmacht long service awards matching his actual years of time in-- prrobably just a 4 when the Second war started.

[Paul R]

So he was an active combatant, with one leg?

[Guest Rick Research]

I suspect he was a "frontline" headquarters staff officer and so received that status. Remember the limpy General in straight legs pants in "The Longest Day?" General Erich Marcks (killed at St L? 19 July 1944) had lost HIS leg in Russia on 26 June 1941.

And think of the bits and pieces that were all that was left of Klaus Graf Schenck von Stauffenberg.

[Les]

Not worn on a ribbon bar, but an additional award would have been a gold wound badge (loss of a limb) after that award was instituted in 1918.

[ColinRF]

Not worn on a ribbon bar, but an additional award would have been a gold wound badge (loss of a limb) after that award was instituted in 1918.

Interesting you reference Stauffenberg - there was an Oberstleutnant Berndt von Kleist in Tresckow's resistance cell in Army Group Centre and he was a member of Tresckow's regiment 1. Prussian foot guards. I suspect this is his medal bar - that of a major July 20 resister. I am envious.

See - http://books.google.ca/books?id=212hoVrF3B...1#PRA1-PA265,M1

Colin

[Les]

Interesting you reference Stauffenberg - there was an Oberstleutnant Berndt von Kleist in Tresckow's resistance cell in Army Group Centre and he was a member of Tresckow's regiment 1. Prussian foot guards. I suspect this is his medal bar - that of a major July 20 resister. I am envious.

Colin

Leutnant Berndt von Kleist is mentioned in the regimental history, and at this (auf Deutsch) site:

http://www.erstes-garderegiment.de/Geschic...Geschichte8.htm

Before visiting, either turn the volume off or down on your computer system. If you're not expecting German marching music, the sound will catch you off guard.

Note #2 at the bottom of the linked page, mentions him being seriously wounded and amputation of his leg.

Les

Edited June 14, 2009 by Les

[ColinRF]

Another ref to him in Tresckow's wiki article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henning_von_Tresckow

a reference to Kleist losing his leg by Schlabrendorff

http://books.google.ca/books?id=AXk3wS3GAE...num=4#PPA189,M1

and a commentary on Kleist's reliability in his Nuremburg statemnet

http://library2.lawschool.cornell.edu/dono..._V_10_09_01.pdf

and a photo of Tresckow and Kleist (you can see Kleist is holding a cane in the photo)

from http://www.topfoto.co.uk/gallery/valkyrie/...es/ppage41.html

Colin

Edited June 14, 2009 by ColinRF

[ColinRF]

Another famous photo of the Tresckow resistance cell in Army Group Centre (Kleist is second from the left leaning over the table). Oberst Berndt von Kleist was one of Treckow's staff officers who volunteered to shoot Hitler at lunch - the plan was vetoed by von Kluge.

Colin

Edited June 14, 2009 by ColinRF

[Valkyrie]

Another famous photo of the Tresckow resistance cell in Army Group Centre (Kleist is second from the left leaning over the table). Oberst Berndt von Kleist was one of Treckow's staff officers who volunteered to shoot Hitler at lunch - the plan was vetoed by von Kluge.

Colin

Holy cow! Count me as part of the envious crowd!!

[ccj]

Holy cow! Count me as part of the envious crowd!!

I'm starting to get excited. i just hope it is von kleist's ribbon bar. :jumping:

[ColinRF]

I am going with Rick's attribution. I'm not sure I follow all the subtleties of the logic but he seems pretty sure of it and that's good enough for me. Unfortunately the most you will probbaly have if you try and sell it is a very strong circumstantial argument in favour of this being Kleist's bar unless you can find some other provenance.

But at least you and a few others will know.

You could write to the German Resistance Memorial in Berlin (http://www.gdw-berlin.de/service/service-e.php) and ask if they have a photo of Kleist showing his medal bar. If anyone has one they will. Explain your situation and ask politely for a scanned copy of anything they have. I have found them to be very helpful and responsive in the past.

Colin

Edited June 16, 2009 by ColinRF

[ccj]

I am going with Rick's attribution. I'm not sure I follow all the subtleties of the logic but he seems pretty sure of it and that's good enough for me. Unfortunately the most you will probbaly have if you try and sell it is a very strong circumstantial argument in favour of this being Kleist's bar unless you can find some other provenance.

But at least you and a few others will know.

You could write to the German Resistance Memorial in Berlin (http://www.gdw-berlin.de/service/service-e.php) and ask if they have a photo of Kleist showing his medal bar. If anyone has one they will. Explain your situation and ask politely for a scanned copy of anything they have. I have found them to be very helpful and responsive in the past.

Colin

I trust Rick's ID on this bar. I just hope no other officer had the same combo...