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    Posted

    Ok,

    this is primary source info, so take it for what it is... interprate what you will....

    An added note... low numbers may mean a unit is rarer than another, but it does not mean it is automatically more desirable....

    Although in the Case of the S.A. Sharpshooters... I would buy em! :-)

    on a couple of units i have subtracted 1 or 2 men of the roll, just so I can see where it is from if it turns up elsewhere...

    Best

    Chris

    War and Victory medals

    Numbers on the Roll as of

    29.1.21

    S.A. Field Artillery Europeans - 2 759

    S.A. Field Artillery Natives – 786

    S.A. Heavy Artillery – 3 231

    Misc. Trades Coy. – 465

    C.A.H.T.C. – 6 323

    S.A.S.C. – 8 717

    1st and 2nd Mtd Brigades – 8 322

    S.A. Ordinance – 13

    Military Police – 11

    S.A.R. Gangers – 10

    S.A.R.os.D.S. – 718

    S.A.W.S.C. – 182

    4th S.A. Horse – 1 201

    1st Special S.A. Engineers – 179

    A.G. Base – 130

    S.A. postal Corps – 30

    S.A. Vetinary Corps – 1 090

    10th S.A. Horse – 1 070

    S.A. mtd. Engineers – 384

    S.A. pioneers – 944

    S.A.M.C. Union – 2 206

    S.A.M.C.C. – 898

    Camp. Com.Staff.Potch. – 450

    S.A. Sharp Shooters – 24

    S.A. Irish – 923

    Natal Light Horse – 1 300

    2nd Transvaal Scottish – 780

    5th Infantry – 1 270

    1st Batt. 7th Infantry – 990

    Stokes Mortar Battery – 94

    Camp.Com Staff Roberts Heights – 661

    Div. Sig. Company - 1 458

    Garrison M.P. – 172

    11th Infantry – 1 430

    20th Mtd Rifles – 820

    10th Inf Wits Rifles – 1 227

    12th Mtd Rifles – 440

    5th Mtd Rifles – 560

    1st SAI Brigade – 23 798

    1st S.A.R. – 324

    S.A.M.C.E.A. – 3 206

    Base Depot, Durban – 350

    Gen. Depot, Wynberg – 114

    Native Labour Corps – 327

    1st S.A.I. Details – 1 016

    Nairobi Howitzers – 49

    2nd S.A.R. – 712

    Indian bearer Coy. – 660

    Recruiting Staff – 80

    Record Staff Simonstown – 4

    Record Staff Rbts Heights – 13

    S.A. Pay Corps – 551

    Record Staff Pietermbg – 1

    C.C. Staff – 5

    Rest Camp Durban – 14

    Rest Camp Johannesburg – 9

    C.C. Staff Kimberly – 68

    S.A.M.C. O/S – 484

    Gen Depot Durban – 157

    2nd batt 1st Inf D.L.I. – 703

    1st Tvl Scottish – 1 090

    2nd and 3rd S.A.I. Bgde – 16 127

    1st batt 1st Inf – 704

    2nd batt Kimberly Regiment 1 000

    Hartigans Horse – 4700

    12th Inf Pretoria Regt 1 442

    2nd Mtd Rifles Ntl Carb – 640

    1st Mtd Rifles Natal Carbineers – 728

    Cape Corps – 7 473

    4th Mtd Rifles – 870

    4th Infantry – 1 228

    3rd Mtd. Rifles – 601

    5th Mtd Rifles 1st ILH – 882

    8th Mtd Rifles – 840

    3rd Infantry – 778

    2nd Infantry – 914

    Cape Corps 2nd – 7 473

    In Progress (so far)

    9th Infantry C.P.R. – 710

    4th Dismounted Rifles – 550

    11th Mounted Rifles – 400

    18th Mounted Rifles – 380

    Lists for 1914-15 stars....

    Position as at 3.1.1921 115 530 names passed on Rolls. Units dealt with and total of names dealt with during January 1921

    10th Infantry – 877

    11th Infantry – 70

    8th Mounted Rifles – 820

    20th Mounted Rifles 280

    3rd Infantry – 778

    5th M.R. 1st Imperial Light Horse – 882

    5th M.R. 2nd Imperial Light Horse – 560

    12th M.R. – 440

    9th infantry – 710

    2nd Infantry – 914

    4th Dismounted Rifles – 550

    18th M.R. 380

    11th M.R. 400

    Total for Month 7 661

    Daily average per clerk 35 names

    Position as at 29.1.1921 123191 names passed on rolls. The following units have been dealt with and the under mentioned number of names have been passed on to the rolls during 02.1921

    18th Mounted Rifles - 486

    11th Mounted Rifles - 100

    9th Infantry - 1 510

    4th D.M.R. - 519

    2nd Imperial Light Horse, 5th M.R. - 563

    9th and 10th M.R. - 214

    Hartigans Horse Supp Roll - 183

    Rand Rifles - 1 107

    Potch A Commando - 477

    Lichtenburg Commando - 748

    Potch B Commando – 331

    Ermelo A Commando – 233

    Wolmaranstad Commando – 180

    Marico Commando – 140

    Bloemhof Commando – 130

    Krugersdorp Commando – 800

    Uys Scouts – 43

    De La Reys Scouts – 60

    Total for month 7 823

    Each clerk averages 32 names per day.

    Position as at 26.2.1921 121014 names passed on rolls. The following units have been dealt with and the undermentioned number of names have been passed on to the rolls during period 27.2.1921 and 1.4.1921

    Wolmaranstad Commando - 61

    Marico Commando - 204

    Bloemhof Commando - 200

    Krugersdorp Commando - 162

    Standerton B Commando - 242

    Heidelburg B Commando - 362

    Bethel Commando - 284

    Heidelberg A Commando - 510

    Middleberg B Commando - 250

    Standerton A Commando - 470

    Middleberg A Commando - 857

    Piet Retief Commando - 275

    Vryheid Commando - 220

    Carolina Commando - 210

    Collins Scouts - 90

    Lemmers Scouts - 46

    Utrecht Commando - 318

    Wakkerstroom Commando - 360

    Ermelo Commando - 240

    Bothas Natal Horse - 581

    Swarts Scouts - 50

    Groblers Scouts - 40

    3rd Regt. 5th Mtd Brigade - 350

    1st Regt. 5th Mtd Brigade - 368

    2nd Regt. 5th Mtd Brigade - 374

    6th Regt. 5th Mtd Brigade - 373

    5th Regt. 5th Mtd Brigade - 381

    4th Regt. 5th Mtd Brigade - 399

    Lydenburg Commando - 438

    Rustenburg Commando - 353

    Bothas Scouts Left Wing - 104

    Bothas Mtd Rifles - 235

    Pieters Commando - 338

    Helgaardts Scouts - 30

    Waterburg Commando - 263

    Enslins Horse - 130

    Hunts Scouts - 10

    1st Rhod Regt - 240

    Total for Month 10 418

    Position as at 1.4.1921 131432 names passed on rolls. The following units have been dealt with and the undermentioned number of names have been passed on to the rolls during period 1.4.1921 and 30.4.1921

    Helgaards Scouts - 31

    Hunts Scouts - 60

    6th Infantry - 882

    5th D.M.R. - 440

    10th D.M.R. & 13th M.D. - 610

    17th M.R. - 627

    6th D.M.R. - 722

    14th D.M.R. - 550

    Celliers Scouts - 100

    Durban Garrison Art. - 300

    9th D.M.R. - 907

    1st D.M.R. - 654

    S.A.M.C. Officers - 358

    7th Citizen Battery - 160

    Cape Fort Engs. - 193

    Enslins Horse - 491

    1st Rhod Regt - 349

    8th Citizen Battery - 170

    Cape Garrison Arty - 770

    Mt Bbde Field Amb. - 360

    12th Citizen Battery - 240

    Heavy Art - 220

    6th Citizen batt (European) - 113

    6th Citizen Batt (Native) - 68

    Britstown Commando - 273

    Victoria West Commando - 290

    Total for Month 9 938

    Position as at 30.4.1921 141370 names passed on rolls. The following units have been dealt with and the undermentioned number of names have been passed on to the rolls during period 1.5.1921 and 25.5.1921

    Mtd. Bgde Field Abulance - 508

    Cape Garrison Artillery - 20

    Machine Gun Detachment - 550

    Heavy Artillery - 720

    Victoria West Commando - 8

    Carnarvon Commando - 352

    S.A.M.N.S. - 190

    Clan William Commando 450

    S.A.M.C. - 1085

    Fraserburg Commando - 336

    Prieska Commando - 240

    Kimberly Commando - 320

    Cullinans Horse - 557

    Sutherland Commando - 250

    Graaff Reinet Commando - 490

    Kalahari Horse - 710

    Calvinia Kenhardt Commando - 794

    Hanover Colesburg Commando - 320

    Hay Commando - 230

    Barkley West Commando - 910

    De Aar Commando - 80

    8th and 13th D.M.R. - 650

    S.A. Pay Corps - 380

    Cradock Commando - 380

    Hopetown Commando - 130

    Total for Month 10 660

    Stars engraved to date 30 318

    Stars despatched to date 28 494

    Position as at 28.06.1921, 152030 names passed on Rolls. The following units have been dealt with and the undermentioned number of names have been passed on to the Rolls during the period 29.5.1921 to 1.6.1921

    Kalahari Horse - 430

    De Aar Commando - 61

    Pay Corps - 80

    Hopetown Commando - 144

    Midland Scouts - 50

    Parkinsons Horse - 66

    Mafeking Commando - 139

    S.A.E.C. - 1914

    Vryburg Commando - 510

    2nd Regiment S.A.M.R. 710

    1st Regiment S.A.M.R. 905

    Philipstown Commando - 231

    Gordonia Commando - 151

    Van Rhysdorp Commando - 740

    3rd Regiment S.A.M.R. - 570

    NAmaqualand Commando - 409

    4th Regiment S.A.M.R.- 678

    5th Regiment S.A.M.R. - 762

    Nieuwoudsville Commando - 204

    Herbert Commando - 359

    Art. Training Depot - 990

    S.A. Vet Corps - 490

    S.A.A.C. - 166

    S.A. Ord. Corps - 910

    S.A.M.R. F.A.B. - 660

    C.O.C.s Bodyguard - 110

    Kakamas Commando - 48

    Special Intelligence - 68

    Cape Cyclist Corps - 60

    1st, 2nd & 3rd Ind. Mtd.R. - 80

    S.A.S.C. - 440

    8th Cit Batt Natives - 100

    B.S.A.P. - 54

    S.A.M.R. Med Section - 60

    S.A.M.R. Natives - 485

    Depots (Base and Gen) - 280

    Staffs (Rank and File) - 180

    Total for month - 14294

    Stars engraved to date - 38 175

    Stars despatched to date - 25 020

    The Engravers

    1 Chief Supervisor

    J. Storey

    10 Supervisors

    F. Sutherland

    F. Mackintosh

    J.S. Anderson

    H. Reeves

    H.H. Dolphin

    N.E. Coker

    Van E. Noome

    S.G.N. Webber

    R.E. Horwood

    36 Assistants

    J.A. Russouw

    J. Smith (Left employ)

    H.A.T.v.d.Poel

    J.J. Pienaar

    E. Gardener

    C.W. Apsey

    O. Schunke

    R.L. Jubber

    A.E.J. Prince

    E. van Broembson

    H.L. Hurray

    J. Murray

    J.S. Pretorius

    E. Donovan

    L.A. Mahon

    Dexter ?

    H. Elstab

    H. Booth

    J.S.T. Wates

    S. Bloom

    J.T. Weir

    G.T. Hendry

    P.J. von Os

    C.O. Oxenholme

    J. Keith

    W.S. Forbes

    W.H. Baker

    R.C. de Villiers

    D.J. van Enter

    M. Russouw

    V. Shearsmith

    C.F. Margetson

    Stampers

    L.H. Brink

    W.D. Mattews

    Posted

    Thanks for this Chris; puts some things in perspective. I have a Cape Garrison Arty BWM - interesting to see the low numbers for this unit. Some of those other arty units would be darn near impossible it would seem - ie Nairobi Howitzers.

    Posted

    Thanks for this Chris; puts some things in perspective. I have a Cape Garrison Arty BWM - interesting to see the low numbers for this unit. Some of those other arty units would be darn near impossible it would seem - ie Nairobi Howitzers.

    Hi,

    It is possible/probable that these are not complete, they are transcribed from a file in the archives in Pretoria.

    Best

    Chris

    Posted

    Understood; representative sample. While not exact totals, it seems logical that the proportions are close. SAFA and SAHA should be large numbers and the territorial units much smaller.

    Heck, I'm just happy for the unit names - regardless of numbers. :catjava:

    Posted

    Hi

    Quite suprised to see 898 to the SAMCC ( South african Motor Cycle Corps) Thought tye unit was quite small

    Cheers

    Perce

    Posted

    Having these listings is valuable information to both historians and medal collectors. Thankyou Chris for taking the time to reasearch - and indeed type it all out. The M/cycle corps served in East Africa - the bicycles proved inadequate and they imported some 400 B.S.A's from England.

    Posted

    Having these listings is valuable information to both historians and medal collectors. Thankyou Chris for taking the time to reasearch - and indeed type it all out. The M/cycle corps served in East Africa - the bicycles proved inadequate and they imported some 400 B.S.A's from England.

    Hi

    I have a pair to the SAMCC- one of the first British/Commonwealth I got

    Pte J F Hekma CM855

    Cheers

    Perce

    Posted (edited)

    Hi Chris

    Thanks for these research inputs. Valuable stuff indeed.

    If you come across South African recipients of the 1914 Star during your research please forward their names to me. According to what I could dig up so far only seven South Africans received this medal. I have traced five of the seven, with a six name yet to be confirmed. I posted it as a topic bout two years ago on this forum.

    :beer:

    Norman

    Edited by NPGilbert
    • 5 months later...
    Posted

    Thanks Chris!:cheers: Just for a fun I typed in my Shuterlnd commando VM details on Google and found this! Like I can see now, only around 250 VMs for that unit!

    My medal naming BURG. P.J. SENEKAL SUTHERLAND KDO.

    Posted

    Thanks Chris!:cheers: Just for a fun I typed in my Shuterlnd commando VM details on Google and found this! Like I can see now, only around 250 VMs for that unit!

    My medal naming BURG. P.J. SENEKAL SUTHERLAND KDO.

    Chris thanks, 660 Indian bearer corps. Makes my pair look more of a bargain than I thought, number of intact pairs must be relatively small.

    Paul

    Posted (edited)

    In my limited experience, the 1914/15 Star issued to South Africans for service in German South West Africa was issued first and is often found as a singleton. The War and Victory Medals were issued later, sometimes to accompany a 14/15 Star, but often as the only entitlement for service in German East Africa and/or Europe. <BR><BR>I have been told that during the silver price boom many War Medals ended up in the melting pot and are thus missing from pairs and trios. <BR><BR>Brett

    Edited by Brett Hendey
    • 1 year later...
    Posted

    Dear Members

    apologies for hijacking Chris' superb research thread but I have recently acquired my first S.A. 1914-15 Star trio to:

    Pte A W Miles 5th Mounted Rifles on the star Cpl. SASC on the pair, he then must have returned to the UK as his final medals are a GV police special constable LSGC and a ww2 Defence medal.

    I have established from the Special Constable medal his name is Archie W Miles would anybody be able to have a stab at the value of this group please?

    Are ILH medals a desirable unit to South African collectors?

    What is the best way of trying to obtain service papers?

    Many thanks and best regards.

    Paul

    Posted

    Paul - welcome to GMIC. Chris' listing of numbers for SA units is important and should be kept visible. I will

    discuss this with Brian and I think will have it 'pinned'.

    The Star with this unit is for the German South West Africa campaign in 1916. I can't remember , off hand , who was in

    the 5th Mounted - will check and let you know. The SASC (South African Service Corps) was probably for East Africa,

    where we were heavily involved. With regard to research there are several good researchers we can suppy you with

    contact details - please let us know ?

    From the details of the Defence medal and the Special Constabulary - they are probably for War Service in the UK.

    ILH stands for Imperial Light Horse. They are a very desireable unit and were formed for the Boer War. They still exist

    as a Citizen unit and have won 4 VC's over the years. Mervyn

    ps. 5th Mounted was Imperial Light Horse.

    • 1 month later...
    Posted (edited)

    Hi

    Quite suprised to see 898 to the SAMCC ( South african Motor Cycle Corps) Thought tye unit was quite small

    Cheers

    Perce

    Guys

    The turn over of troops due to sickness in the GEA Campaign led to a fairly large input of reserves joining the unit from the Union. Still a great unit, they were NOT despatch riders but were actually a mounted fighting regiment (albeit on motorcycles). I am busy with a booklet on these chaps, should be interesting read when finished.

    Regards

    Brian

    Edited by brian conyngham
    Posted (edited)

    Hi Brian

    Are you going to publish the booklet on general release when its finished?

    Cheers

    Perce

    Edited by perce
    Posted

    Hi Brian

    Are you going to publish the booklet on general release when its finished?

    Cheers

    Perce

    Perce

    Looking into a few options, it all depends on the number of pages and photo's at the moment. Busy with another project so unfortunately this one is a little delayed. Looking for some original info to add, so far managed to find 2 unpublished pictures, a personal diary and the OC's message book, besides the info from the archives.

    Will keep you posted.

    Brian

    Brian

    • 1 month later...
    Posted

    Gentlemen

    whilst on the subject of South African Medals, I acquired a bundle of BWMs recently amongst which was one issued to Sapper W.E.Cooke SAEC, which I take to refer to South African Engineer Corps. I cannot find his MIC on the TNA Website, nor any service papers. My question is, what theatre of war is this recipient likely to have served in, and was this a common or a scarce unit. Basically, I know very little about this unit and would like to discover more, and even better, anything about the recipient. Cheers Richard

    Posted

    Richard

    The SAEC was represented in all the theatres in which South African troops were involved. They were:

    German South West Africa, German East Africa, Egypt & Palestine, and France/Flanders.

    While all would have received the War Medal together with the Victory Medal, those who served in GSWA were awarded the 1914/15 Star as well. Single War Medals were also issued to service personnel who did not see active service.

    There will be a service record for your man in the military archives in Pretoria, but you will need a local researcher to copy it. These records vary considerably in size and detail, so can be disappointing.

    Regards

    Brett

    Posted

    Hi,

    waht is the TNA Website?

    best

    Chris

    TNA Website is "The National Archives" where most surviving records for the British Armed Forces are kept - possibly only about 10% of the whole are now digitized although many records were lost to enemy action during the Blitz.
    Posted

    Richard

    The SAEC was represented in all the theatres in which South African troops were involved. They were:

    German South West Africa, German East Africa, Egypt & Palestine, and France/Flanders.

    While all would have received the War Medal together with the Victory Medal, those who served in GSWA were awarded the 1914/15 Star as well. Single War Medals were also issued to service personnel who did not see active service.

    There will be a service record for your man in the military archives in Pretoria, but you will need a local researcher to copy it. These records vary considerably in size and detail, so can be disappointing.

    Regards

    Brett

    Many thanks indeed Brett for your help - any suggestions as to a way forward on this one - any contacts you can suggest in Pretoria? Living in UK I know nobody over there. Best wishes, Richard
    Posted

    Richard

    The person I have used is Audrey Portman (rhino.research@icon.co.za). If I can be of any other assistance, please do not hesitate to PM me.

    Regards

    Brett

    Posted

    M

    Richard

    The person I have used is Audrey Portman (rhino.research@icon.co.za). If I can be of any other assistance, please do not hesitate to PM me.

    Regards

    Brett

    Many thanks Brett - I shall follow that one up. Have a nice day. Richard

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