Chris Boonzaier Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 Ok, this is primary source info, so take it for what it is... interprate what you will.... An added note... low numbers may mean a unit is rarer than another, but it does not mean it is automatically more desirable.... Although in the Case of the S.A. Sharpshooters... I would buy em! :-) on a couple of units i have subtracted 1 or 2 men of the roll, just so I can see where it is from if it turns up elsewhere... Best Chris War and Victory medals Numbers on the Roll as of 29.1.21 S.A. Field Artillery Europeans - 2 759 S.A. Field Artillery Natives – 786 S.A. Heavy Artillery – 3 231 Misc. Trades Coy. – 465 C.A.H.T.C. – 6 323 S.A.S.C. – 8 717 1st and 2nd Mtd Brigades – 8 322 S.A. Ordinance – 13 Military Police – 11 S.A.R. Gangers – 10 S.A.R.os.D.S. – 718 S.A.W.S.C. – 182 4th S.A. Horse – 1 201 1st Special S.A. Engineers – 179 A.G. Base – 130 S.A. postal Corps – 30 S.A. Vetinary Corps – 1 090 10th S.A. Horse – 1 070 S.A. mtd. Engineers – 384 S.A. pioneers – 944 S.A.M.C. Union – 2 206 S.A.M.C.C. – 898 Camp. Com.Staff.Potch. – 450 S.A. Sharp Shooters – 24 S.A. Irish – 923 Natal Light Horse – 1 300 2nd Transvaal Scottish – 780 5th Infantry – 1 270 1st Batt. 7th Infantry – 990 Stokes Mortar Battery – 94 Camp.Com Staff Roberts Heights – 661 Div. Sig. Company - 1 458 Garrison M.P. – 172 11th Infantry – 1 430 20th Mtd Rifles – 820 10th Inf Wits Rifles – 1 227 12th Mtd Rifles – 440 5th Mtd Rifles – 560 1st SAI Brigade – 23 798 1st S.A.R. – 324 S.A.M.C.E.A. – 3 206 Base Depot, Durban – 350 Gen. Depot, Wynberg – 114 Native Labour Corps – 327 1st S.A.I. Details – 1 016 Nairobi Howitzers – 49 2nd S.A.R. – 712 Indian bearer Coy. – 660 Recruiting Staff – 80 Record Staff Simonstown – 4 Record Staff Rbts Heights – 13 S.A. Pay Corps – 551 Record Staff Pietermbg – 1 C.C. Staff – 5 Rest Camp Durban – 14 Rest Camp Johannesburg – 9 C.C. Staff Kimberly – 68 S.A.M.C. O/S – 484 Gen Depot Durban – 157 2nd batt 1st Inf D.L.I. – 703 1st Tvl Scottish – 1 090 2nd and 3rd S.A.I. Bgde – 16 127 1st batt 1st Inf – 704 2nd batt Kimberly Regiment 1 000 Hartigans Horse – 4700 12th Inf Pretoria Regt 1 442 2nd Mtd Rifles Ntl Carb – 640 1st Mtd Rifles Natal Carbineers – 728 Cape Corps – 7 473 4th Mtd Rifles – 870 4th Infantry – 1 228 3rd Mtd. Rifles – 601 5th Mtd Rifles 1st ILH – 882 8th Mtd Rifles – 840 3rd Infantry – 778 2nd Infantry – 914 Cape Corps 2nd – 7 473 In Progress (so far) 9th Infantry C.P.R. – 710 4th Dismounted Rifles – 550 11th Mounted Rifles – 400 18th Mounted Rifles – 380 Lists for 1914-15 stars.... Position as at 3.1.1921 115 530 names passed on Rolls. Units dealt with and total of names dealt with during January 1921 10th Infantry – 877 11th Infantry – 70 8th Mounted Rifles – 820 20th Mounted Rifles 280 3rd Infantry – 778 5th M.R. 1st Imperial Light Horse – 882 5th M.R. 2nd Imperial Light Horse – 560 12th M.R. – 440 9th infantry – 710 2nd Infantry – 914 4th Dismounted Rifles – 550 18th M.R. 380 11th M.R. 400 Total for Month 7 661 Daily average per clerk 35 names Position as at 29.1.1921 123191 names passed on rolls. The following units have been dealt with and the under mentioned number of names have been passed on to the rolls during 02.1921 18th Mounted Rifles - 486 11th Mounted Rifles - 100 9th Infantry - 1 510 4th D.M.R. - 519 2nd Imperial Light Horse, 5th M.R. - 563 9th and 10th M.R. - 214 Hartigans Horse Supp Roll - 183 Rand Rifles - 1 107 Potch A Commando - 477 Lichtenburg Commando - 748 Potch B Commando – 331 Ermelo A Commando – 233 Wolmaranstad Commando – 180 Marico Commando – 140 Bloemhof Commando – 130 Krugersdorp Commando – 800 Uys Scouts – 43 De La Reys Scouts – 60 Total for month 7 823 Each clerk averages 32 names per day. Position as at 26.2.1921 121014 names passed on rolls. The following units have been dealt with and the undermentioned number of names have been passed on to the rolls during period 27.2.1921 and 1.4.1921 Wolmaranstad Commando - 61 Marico Commando - 204 Bloemhof Commando - 200 Krugersdorp Commando - 162 Standerton B Commando - 242 Heidelburg B Commando - 362 Bethel Commando - 284 Heidelberg A Commando - 510 Middleberg B Commando - 250 Standerton A Commando - 470 Middleberg A Commando - 857 Piet Retief Commando - 275 Vryheid Commando - 220 Carolina Commando - 210 Collins Scouts - 90 Lemmers Scouts - 46 Utrecht Commando - 318 Wakkerstroom Commando - 360 Ermelo Commando - 240 Bothas Natal Horse - 581 Swarts Scouts - 50 Groblers Scouts - 40 3rd Regt. 5th Mtd Brigade - 350 1st Regt. 5th Mtd Brigade - 368 2nd Regt. 5th Mtd Brigade - 374 6th Regt. 5th Mtd Brigade - 373 5th Regt. 5th Mtd Brigade - 381 4th Regt. 5th Mtd Brigade - 399 Lydenburg Commando - 438 Rustenburg Commando - 353 Bothas Scouts Left Wing - 104 Bothas Mtd Rifles - 235 Pieters Commando - 338 Helgaardts Scouts - 30 Waterburg Commando - 263 Enslins Horse - 130 Hunts Scouts - 10 1st Rhod Regt - 240 Total for Month 10 418 Position as at 1.4.1921 131432 names passed on rolls. The following units have been dealt with and the undermentioned number of names have been passed on to the rolls during period 1.4.1921 and 30.4.1921 Helgaards Scouts - 31 Hunts Scouts - 60 6th Infantry - 882 5th D.M.R. - 440 10th D.M.R. & 13th M.D. - 610 17th M.R. - 627 6th D.M.R. - 722 14th D.M.R. - 550 Celliers Scouts - 100 Durban Garrison Art. - 300 9th D.M.R. - 907 1st D.M.R. - 654 S.A.M.C. Officers - 358 7th Citizen Battery - 160 Cape Fort Engs. - 193 Enslins Horse - 491 1st Rhod Regt - 349 8th Citizen Battery - 170 Cape Garrison Arty - 770 Mt Bbde Field Amb. - 360 12th Citizen Battery - 240 Heavy Art - 220 6th Citizen batt (European) - 113 6th Citizen Batt (Native) - 68 Britstown Commando - 273 Victoria West Commando - 290 Total for Month 9 938 Position as at 30.4.1921 141370 names passed on rolls. The following units have been dealt with and the undermentioned number of names have been passed on to the rolls during period 1.5.1921 and 25.5.1921 Mtd. Bgde Field Abulance - 508 Cape Garrison Artillery - 20 Machine Gun Detachment - 550 Heavy Artillery - 720 Victoria West Commando - 8 Carnarvon Commando - 352 S.A.M.N.S. - 190 Clan William Commando 450 S.A.M.C. - 1085 Fraserburg Commando - 336 Prieska Commando - 240 Kimberly Commando - 320 Cullinans Horse - 557 Sutherland Commando - 250 Graaff Reinet Commando - 490 Kalahari Horse - 710 Calvinia Kenhardt Commando - 794 Hanover Colesburg Commando - 320 Hay Commando - 230 Barkley West Commando - 910 De Aar Commando - 80 8th and 13th D.M.R. - 650 S.A. Pay Corps - 380 Cradock Commando - 380 Hopetown Commando - 130 Total for Month 10 660 Stars engraved to date 30 318 Stars despatched to date 28 494 Position as at 28.06.1921, 152030 names passed on Rolls. The following units have been dealt with and the undermentioned number of names have been passed on to the Rolls during the period 29.5.1921 to 1.6.1921 Kalahari Horse - 430 De Aar Commando - 61 Pay Corps - 80 Hopetown Commando - 144 Midland Scouts - 50 Parkinsons Horse - 66 Mafeking Commando - 139 S.A.E.C. - 1914 Vryburg Commando - 510 2nd Regiment S.A.M.R. 710 1st Regiment S.A.M.R. 905 Philipstown Commando - 231 Gordonia Commando - 151 Van Rhysdorp Commando - 740 3rd Regiment S.A.M.R. - 570 NAmaqualand Commando - 409 4th Regiment S.A.M.R.- 678 5th Regiment S.A.M.R. - 762 Nieuwoudsville Commando - 204 Herbert Commando - 359 Art. Training Depot - 990 S.A. Vet Corps - 490 S.A.A.C. - 166 S.A. Ord. Corps - 910 S.A.M.R. F.A.B. - 660 C.O.C.s Bodyguard - 110 Kakamas Commando - 48 Special Intelligence - 68 Cape Cyclist Corps - 60 1st, 2nd & 3rd Ind. Mtd.R. - 80 S.A.S.C. - 440 8th Cit Batt Natives - 100 B.S.A.P. - 54 S.A.M.R. Med Section - 60 S.A.M.R. Natives - 485 Depots (Base and Gen) - 280 Staffs (Rank and File) - 180 Total for month - 14294 Stars engraved to date - 38 175 Stars despatched to date - 25 020 The Engravers 1 Chief Supervisor J. Storey 10 Supervisors F. Sutherland F. Mackintosh J.S. Anderson H. Reeves H.H. Dolphin N.E. Coker Van E. Noome S.G.N. Webber R.E. Horwood 36 Assistants J.A. Russouw J. Smith (Left employ) H.A.T.v.d.Poel J.J. Pienaar E. Gardener C.W. Apsey O. Schunke R.L. Jubber A.E.J. Prince E. van Broembson H.L. Hurray J. Murray J.S. Pretorius E. Donovan L.A. Mahon Dexter ? H. Elstab H. Booth J.S.T. Wates S. Bloom J.T. Weir G.T. Hendry P.J. von Os C.O. Oxenholme J. Keith W.S. Forbes W.H. Baker R.C. de Villiers D.J. van Enter M. Russouw V. Shearsmith C.F. Margetson Stampers L.H. Brink W.D. Mattews 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishGunner Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 Thanks for this Chris; puts some things in perspective. I have a Cape Garrison Arty BWM - interesting to see the low numbers for this unit. Some of those other arty units would be darn near impossible it would seem - ie Nairobi Howitzers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted September 21, 2010 Author Share Posted September 21, 2010 Thanks for this Chris; puts some things in perspective. I have a Cape Garrison Arty BWM - interesting to see the low numbers for this unit. Some of those other arty units would be darn near impossible it would seem - ie Nairobi Howitzers. Hi, It is possible/probable that these are not complete, they are transcribed from a file in the archives in Pretoria. Best Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishGunner Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 Understood; representative sample. While not exact totals, it seems logical that the proportions are close. SAFA and SAHA should be large numbers and the territorial units much smaller. Heck, I'm just happy for the unit names - regardless of numbers. :catjava: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perce Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 Hi Quite suprised to see 898 to the SAMCC ( South african Motor Cycle Corps) Thought tye unit was quite small Cheers Perce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted September 22, 2010 Share Posted September 22, 2010 Having these listings is valuable information to both historians and medal collectors. Thankyou Chris for taking the time to reasearch - and indeed type it all out. The M/cycle corps served in East Africa - the bicycles proved inadequate and they imported some 400 B.S.A's from England. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perce Posted September 22, 2010 Share Posted September 22, 2010 Having these listings is valuable information to both historians and medal collectors. Thankyou Chris for taking the time to reasearch - and indeed type it all out. The M/cycle corps served in East Africa - the bicycles proved inadequate and they imported some 400 B.S.A's from England. Hi I have a pair to the SAMCC- one of the first British/Commonwealth I got Pte J F Hekma CM855 Cheers Perce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NPGilbert Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 (edited) Hi Chris Thanks for these research inputs. Valuable stuff indeed. If you come across South African recipients of the 1914 Star during your research please forward their names to me. According to what I could dig up so far only seven South Africans received this medal. I have traced five of the seven, with a six name yet to be confirmed. I posted it as a topic bout two years ago on this forum. Norman Edited September 28, 2010 by NPGilbert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noor Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Thanks Chris! Just for a fun I typed in my Shuterlnd commando VM details on Google and found this! Like I can see now, only around 250 VMs for that unit! My medal naming BURG. P.J. SENEKAL SUTHERLAND KDO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul wood Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Thanks Chris! Just for a fun I typed in my Shuterlnd commando VM details on Google and found this! Like I can see now, only around 250 VMs for that unit! My medal naming BURG. P.J. SENEKAL SUTHERLAND KDO. Chris thanks, 660 Indian bearer corps. Makes my pair look more of a bargain than I thought, number of intact pairs must be relatively small. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett Hendey Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 (edited) In my limited experience, the 1914/15 Star issued to South Africans for service in German South West Africa was issued first and is often found as a singleton. The War and Victory Medals were issued later, sometimes to accompany a 14/15 Star, but often as the only entitlement for service in German East Africa and/or Europe. <BR><BR>I have been told that during the silver price boom many War Medals ended up in the melting pot and are thus missing from pairs and trios. <BR><BR>Brett Edited March 15, 2011 by Brett Hendey 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingsman64 Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Dear Members apologies for hijacking Chris' superb research thread but I have recently acquired my first S.A. 1914-15 Star trio to: Pte A W Miles 5th Mounted Rifles on the star Cpl. SASC on the pair, he then must have returned to the UK as his final medals are a GV police special constable LSGC and a ww2 Defence medal. I have established from the Special Constable medal his name is Archie W Miles would anybody be able to have a stab at the value of this group please? Are ILH medals a desirable unit to South African collectors? What is the best way of trying to obtain service papers? Many thanks and best regards. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Paul - welcome to GMIC. Chris' listing of numbers for SA units is important and should be kept visible. I will discuss this with Brian and I think will have it 'pinned'. The Star with this unit is for the German South West Africa campaign in 1916. I can't remember , off hand , who was in the 5th Mounted - will check and let you know. The SASC (South African Service Corps) was probably for East Africa, where we were heavily involved. With regard to research there are several good researchers we can suppy you with contact details - please let us know ? From the details of the Defence medal and the Special Constabulary - they are probably for War Service in the UK. ILH stands for Imperial Light Horse. They are a very desireable unit and were formed for the Boer War. They still exist as a Citizen unit and have won 4 VC's over the years. Mervyn ps. 5th Mounted was Imperial Light Horse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted June 21, 2012 Author Share Posted June 21, 2012 This may also be of interest... http://www.kaiserscross.com/40117/40726.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian conyngham Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 (edited) Hi Quite suprised to see 898 to the SAMCC ( South african Motor Cycle Corps) Thought tye unit was quite small Cheers Perce Guys The turn over of troops due to sickness in the GEA Campaign led to a fairly large input of reserves joining the unit from the Union. Still a great unit, they were NOT despatch riders but were actually a mounted fighting regiment (albeit on motorcycles). I am busy with a booklet on these chaps, should be interesting read when finished. Regards Brian Edited August 13, 2012 by brian conyngham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perce Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 (edited) Hi Brian Are you going to publish the booklet on general release when its finished? Cheers Perce Edited August 16, 2012 by perce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian conyngham Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Hi Brian Are you going to publish the booklet on general release when its finished? Cheers Perce Perce Looking into a few options, it all depends on the number of pages and photo's at the moment. Busy with another project so unfortunately this one is a little delayed. Looking for some original info to add, so far managed to find 2 unpublished pictures, a personal diary and the OC's message book, besides the info from the archives. Will keep you posted. Brian Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasfuman Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Gentlemen whilst on the subject of South African Medals, I acquired a bundle of BWMs recently amongst which was one issued to Sapper W.E.Cooke SAEC, which I take to refer to South African Engineer Corps. I cannot find his MIC on the TNA Website, nor any service papers. My question is, what theatre of war is this recipient likely to have served in, and was this a common or a scarce unit. Basically, I know very little about this unit and would like to discover more, and even better, anything about the recipient. Cheers Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted October 14, 2012 Author Share Posted October 14, 2012 Hi, waht is the TNA Website? best Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul R Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Only 60 medical personnel to support all of those men?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett Hendey Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Richard The SAEC was represented in all the theatres in which South African troops were involved. They were: German South West Africa, German East Africa, Egypt & Palestine, and France/Flanders. While all would have received the War Medal together with the Victory Medal, those who served in GSWA were awarded the 1914/15 Star as well. Single War Medals were also issued to service personnel who did not see active service. There will be a service record for your man in the military archives in Pretoria, but you will need a local researcher to copy it. These records vary considerably in size and detail, so can be disappointing. Regards Brett 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasfuman Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Hi, waht is the TNA Website? best Chris TNA Website is "The National Archives" where most surviving records for the British Armed Forces are kept - possibly only about 10% of the whole are now digitized although many records were lost to enemy action during the Blitz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasfuman Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Richard The SAEC was represented in all the theatres in which South African troops were involved. They were: German South West Africa, German East Africa, Egypt & Palestine, and France/Flanders. While all would have received the War Medal together with the Victory Medal, those who served in GSWA were awarded the 1914/15 Star as well. Single War Medals were also issued to service personnel who did not see active service. There will be a service record for your man in the military archives in Pretoria, but you will need a local researcher to copy it. These records vary considerably in size and detail, so can be disappointing. Regards Brett Many thanks indeed Brett for your help - any suggestions as to a way forward on this one - any contacts you can suggest in Pretoria? Living in UK I know nobody over there. Best wishes, Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett Hendey Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Richard The person I have used is Audrey Portman (rhino.research@icon.co.za). If I can be of any other assistance, please do not hesitate to PM me. Regards Brett 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasfuman Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 M Richard The person I have used is Audrey Portman (rhino.research@icon.co.za). If I can be of any other assistance, please do not hesitate to PM me. Regards Brett Many thanks Brett - I shall follow that one up. Have a nice day. Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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