A monster Saxon bar

[Bob Hunter]

This came via my "connection" and is something very special. This belonged to an officer candidate and later leutnant of the 13th Jager Regt. who got recycled for WWII as probable Hauptman and logged some more combat time. No desk for this warrior. The self-proclaimed "good twin" and fearless forum leader has narrowed down to ten lieutenants that cannot be excluded but more time and information is needed. I really like this bar! jumping

animal :cat-smiley-025:

[Bob Hunter]

obverse.

Edited May 26, 2005 by Bob Hunter

[Jason]

What a cracker! Well done Bob!

cheers Jason

[Deruelle]

Very nice medal bar Bob. Do you know the owner ?

So beautiful jumping

Christophe

[Guest Rick Research]

Huh! I actually had this medal bar in my hands before it was whipped away to be packed up and never seen by me again, boo hoo!

This fellow was unquestionably in Saxon J?ger Battalion 13, from the Reuss awards. Amazing to think that someone still an officer candidate when the war started-- and so ONLY a Leutnant at war's end-- would have lived through being awarded SEVEN combat decorations.

I do not have the Autengruber-published Silver St Henry Medal WW1 roll, which would be the place to run down JB13 recipients 1914-16. I do have the roll with SV3bXs, but without being able to compare those with St henry Medal winners, can only GUESS at the number of Leutnants listed in ALL J?ger units. With TWO awards from Reuss, I'd have assumed that this man STAYED in JB13 throughout, but you never know. He could have been in one of the wartime Reserve J?ger battalions at some point, and don't want to omit any suspects.

It looks like he was NOT a regular army Leutnant-- I went through all of them from the Honor Rank List, looking for a Wehrmacht officer, and found no match there. Most likely he was a wartime Leutnant der Reserve, called back up in the mid 1930s as a Hauptmann (E). As many 1914-18 reserve Lts did that as former 1914-18 reguar Leutnants.

But the absolute key will be the REUSS rolls-- and matching DOUBLE awards with a St Henry Medal and the SV3bX.

I may have potential good news, Bob. PMing you on someplace to look.

[Mike Huxley]

One hell of a fantasic Saxon Bar Bob congratulations on obtaining it. Strange presidence though. Why is the St Henry silver medal placed above the Officer awards, or did he just rate this award above all others?

Rick, did this bar come to your hands through your "Evil Twin" flame

[Stogieman]

The Saxon Military Order of Saint Henry is the Kingdom's highest award and all grades will always take precedence over any other Saxon Award, irrespective of the grade and/or class.

[Stogieman]

Besides, I'M the GOOD Twin!

[Ulsterman]

Interesting that he has only one LS award no? Perhaps a war duration volunteer from Gymnasium/University?

[Guest Rick Research]

If there had been only Orders and not the medals, he could have had up to eleven years total military time by 1939, when awards of the Wehrmacht long service decorations stopped "for the duration" and so only had a 4. Many an overaged Hauptmann and even some retread Majors only had a 4.

But since he got the St Henry and Reuss medals, only for enlisted men, he had to have been noncommissioned in 1914 at least. I haven't found a match with a regular Leutnant from JB 13, but he could have been a One Year Volunteer who joined 1912/13, or a War Volunteer from 1914, and so commissioned about 1916 in the resrerves OR regulars. Depending on when he left the army (1919 or 1920) that would have effected his service time reckoning, 1912/14 to 1919/20 being only 5 years at the low end or 7 years maximum. Rejoining (E) in 1935 as most did would have added 4 more years to when the long service awards stopped, so 9 to 11 total actual years in uniform when WW2 began.

Many WW1 Leutnants der Reserve were called back as 1930s Hauptleute (E), since they had the same rushed "professional" training as young regulars. This officer proably made major (E) in 1940 or 1941, when the (E) designation was finally dropped, and as a combat officer would then have gone into the "T" pool, ending up as an Oberstleutnant if he survived.

[Ulsterman]

If there had been only Orders and not the medals, he could have had up to eleven years total military time by 1939, when awards of the Wehrmacht long service decorations stopped "for the duration" and so only had a 4. Many an overaged Hauptmann and even some retread Majors only had a 4.

But since he got the St Henry and Reuss medals, only for enlisted men, he had to have been noncommissioned in 1914 at least. I haven't found a match with a regular Leutnant from JB 13, but he could have been a One Year Volunteer who joined 1912/13, or a War Volunteer from 1914, and so commissioned about 1916 in the resrerves OR regulars. Depending on when he left the army (1919 or 1920) that would have effected his service time reckoning, 1912/14 to 1919/20 being only 5 years at the low end or 7 years maximum. Rejoining (E) in 1935 as most did would have added 4 more years to when the long service awards stopped, so 9 to 11 total actual years in uniform when WW2 began.

Many WW1 Leutnants der Reserve were called back as 1930s Hauptleute (E), since they had the same rushed "professional" training as young regulars. This officer proably made major (E) in 1940 or 1941, when the (E) designation was finally dropped, and as a combat officer would then have gone into the "T" pool, ending up as an Oberstleutnant if he survived.

←

I thought World War One service years counted as double time? So as a War Volunteer who was out in early 1919 and brought back in 1936 he could avoid the 12 year medal.

[Guest Rick Research]

Regular NCOs received the IX, XII, and XV years awards. Regular OFFICERS got nothing Imperial before XXV. Wehrmacht service time did not count ANY Imperial service double, though holders of Imperial long services were allowed to swap them for the new version (an XII for the 12 and 4 and so on) even when the calendar years of Imperial service didn't make "real" years."

In absence of Reuss WW1 rolls, at this point am stuck at trying to find out which of the following J?ger unit "suspects" could have been the original owner of this bar, in a reserve (no regulars) officer candidate rank with a

Silver Saint Henry Medal:

BALZER, Wolfgang

FRITZSCHE, Albert

GROSSE, Gerhardt/Gerhard

M?LLER/MUELLER, Karl/Carl

POHLAND, Conrad/Konrad

SCH?NFELD/SCHOENFELD, Kurt/Curt

SINGER, Walter

UHLMANN, Alfred (Assistenzarzt dR, so MEDICAL, not very likely, but...)

WITTIG, Karl/Carl

Aside from these NINE, there were no recipients of the SV3bX in any Saxon J?ger unit who I have not been able to rule out.

I am working through Bob's JB13 history (filled with such details as sandbags made out of women's blouses adding color to the battlefield, and escaped domestic chickens breeding faster than they could be eaten out in No Man's Land), but it appears the Reuss connection will turn out to be RESERVE J?ger Battalion 13 rather than the peacetime establishment. For some reason the author of the JB 13 WW1 history only reports IRON CROSSES as specific awards, sliding over everything else with "and awards were handed out at this parade" comments. :speechless-smiley-004:

Would anyone with the Autengruber Silver Saint Henry Medal WW1 roll please check for the nine names above?

[notned]

Beautiful Bar!!!

Thanks for sharing!!

Any more??

Keep em coming!

Regards

Paul

[Bob Hunter]

I am in debt to "The League of the Two Rickies" for the hardware and the research.

Bars like this one do not turn up every month and when they do the resources to close the deal must be available. animal animal

[Claudio]

Hi Bob,

What a magnificent bar... It's not so easy to come by medal bars with Reussiche Medals, especially the Ehrenkreuz of the House Order... I am still looking for one to add to my collection... til now without success!

Ciao,

Claudio

[Guest Rick Research]

Nay, I SAYeth unTO thee, my breTHEren, it is a STRAY, a LOST, an unLISted M?ckel, for suffer the Little Chirruns for to LEADeth them, aymen!!!!

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For out of the bapTISmal deRESses of BAYbes cometh the idenTIFication.

For the mySTEries shall be reVEALeth, over eBAY, yay. And the ConTINents shall caLLEth forth cooPERation and insIGHT.

[Guest Rick Research]

Oh yes, there has been some tuggery and rubbery over the last 60s years, but all is THIS there, a bit saggy here and there (aren't we all), a bit frayed and worn (aren't we all) But note IN PARTICULAR that the Reuss Honor Cross was indeed, as proven by THIS photo, taken on 3 July 1942, originally issued as the class without crown by removal of a crown and Orders Chancery fitted custom swivel ring:

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THRIFTY Reuss had obviously run OUT of the class without crown by 1918-ish, and having on hand a surplus stock of the ones which had to be made that way with the crown, simply did a bit of re-fitting.

We had wondered. Now we know.

All thanks to a baby photo on German eBay... and Daniel Krause's beady eyes and elephantine memory.

[Daniel Murphy]

Now that is a one in a million. Here is a bar that could only have belonged to one of nine officers and somebody goes and finds a picture of that man wearing that exact (down to the minute details) medal bar. Great job and a pat on the back for all involved. But...which one is he?

Dan Murphy

[Guest Rick Research]

What, no baby picture????? OK, back with it in a bit.

Nope, he was Unsuspected Suspect Number 10...

ironic, since his Number "10" shoulder boards identified him. Not his face... as you will see.

Or more accurately, NOT see.

[Bob Hunter]

Stay tuned as this saga unfolds...

[Guest Rick Research]

Rod Serling voice: On a small blue planet in a distant backwater of the galaxy, a medal bar appears. It goes to live at Bob's house, biding it's time and waiting...

Waiting for an obscure global commercial enterprise, multiple revolutions around the planet's Sol to offer up

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[Guest Rick Research]

Joe Pesci voice: Yeah, THAT. You were expecting the freakin' Mona Lisa? What? What?

[Guest Rick Research]

Voice of HRH The Prince of Wales:

Then, as if by a miracle, it is recognized by a returning soldier who has seen said medal bar ONCE, as an email scan in the mountains of the former Yugoslavia:

[attachmentid=39862]

[Guest Rick Research]

Voice of David Attenborough:

Eagle eyed, the veteran collector never forgets where he has seen his prey, storing away an indelible image imprinted in his mind, able to recognize its outline even in the darkness, months and years later....

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[Guest Rick Research]

Voice of Cookie Monster from Sesame Street:

Like me love cookie, never forget nummy medal bar

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