Dave Wilkinson

It would have been an RAF style blue/grey fleck shirt without epaulettes and patch pockets. To be strictly accurate it should have a detachable collar with stud front and back. If his tunic were removed the shirt would obviously be visible together with probably braces to hold up his trousers. Dave.

Its a helmet plate. If you go to the website "ozbadge" yoiu will find a comprehensive site dealing with all Australian Police insignia. Dave.

Mervyn, Although I have his "I spy Blue" book, its many years since I glanced at it, but did so several minutes ago. He credits both photos as being from "The Times". I may have noticed the error previously but have to admit that I've never drawn his attention to it. Indeed I've never had any contact with him. He's certainly not (to my knowledge) ever been a member of PICA or similar. I saw the photo for the first time many years ago in a small booklet published in the 1940's by the Chief Constable of Liverpool in which he set out a brief history of policing in Liverpool. I suspect that the original copyright for it rests with Liverpool City Police. Dave.

Mervyn, Your annexed photo which you caption "City of London Constables Uniform Prior to 1865" is unfortunately incorrect. It actually shows a Liverpool Borough Constable. The City of London Police have never worn a belt plate, in addition you can see the Liver bird badges on his collar. Finally, the photo is one which appears regularly in publications dealing with the early history of Liverpool City Police. I hope this is helpful. Dave.

The letter "R" together with the divisional letter/number was worn on the tunic collar and on the helmet plates. The designation on helmet plates continued until approx. 1935/6. At that time a slightly re-designed helmet plate was introduced featuring the GvR cipher in place of the letters/numbers. Dave.

Senior Officers in the City Police when wearing No:-1 uniform did not wear external sword belts. Canvas belts were worn beneath the tunic with the sword suspended on a hook attached to the concealed belt , the hook being accessed through a "slit" in the left side of the tunic. Dave.

The City Police have never worn chrome fittings on their uniforms. They were either brass (pre. c.1970) or gold anodised (post c. 1970). This is notwithstanding the chrome chain shown in the photo. Dave.

"E" Division reserves. Dave.

Are you going to share that information with us? Perhaps you would also post a photo of the reverse.

Having collected police insignia and some associated material for some fifty plus years now I've always been tempted to collect truncheons. In the early days I was "caught out" by a fraudster and ever since that experience has taught me to steer well clear of them and that would be the advice I would give to anyone who contemplates going in that direction. I've no doubt that others would disagree but that is honest my opinion. Dave.Wilkinson

The Lancashire "plaque" is just that. The badge is a plastic replica of the helmet plate which n its actual form is manufactured in chrome plated metal and soft enamel. Dave.

The second photo down shows members of the Hertfordshire Constabulary. Again, of no relevance to the issue being discussed. As far as I'm aware the Met. always wore "thin" Russia braid stripes (as still worn today) on tunics. On overcoats (final photo shown) the stripes were as shown (black worsted on a white felt backing). Dave.

The question of Metpol. SC uniform is complicated as you have discovered. The last photo you post shows a Newcastle-upon-Tyne police officer. I'm not quite sure why you have shown this but I think you should ignore the style and badges etc on his uniform for obvious reasons. Your original post says that you were charged duty (presumably VAT) on the item when it arrived in the UK. I suggest you lodge an appeal. It should not be difficult to prove that the jacket is over 100 years old and as such it is exempt from such duty. That said, you will still have to pay the Royal Mail "handling" fee. It is always wise to try to explain to sellers (who are abroad) that they should correctly complete the customs dec. stating clearly that the item is antique and is British made being returned to the UK (where appropriate). Best of luck in getting to the bottom of your mystery. As an aside, I have a large number of Metpol. SC cap badges of different styles and periods but have never seen an example of the version you are referring to with a slider fitting. Dave.

Mervyn, The Mersey River Police ceased to exist on 15th February 1920 and at that time the strength was 1 Superintendent, 3 Coxwains and 14 Constables. The displaced men were absorbed into the land divisions of the City Police. With regard to Reg Hale's research, yes he did privately produce a 43 page book which gave details of his discovered non-Home Office police forces which had existed since 1829. He was kind enough to send me a copy (which I still have). Unfortunately it is not dated but from recollection it must have been sent to me about 15 years ago. Best wishes, Dave.

Mervyn, Just to clarify. The Mersey River Police were not a "stand alone" police force. They were a division of the Liverpool City Police and were administered along similar lines to the Thames River Police which were and are an integral part of the Metropolitan Police. They were all members of the Liverpool City Police who were posted for duty on the River Mersey. That said, rather unusually they were provided with their own distinctive cap and collar badges. The collar badges in my collection have loop/lug fittings on the reverse and are also drilled as per the photo. The individual whose name escapes you is Reg Hale (now deceased) and he lived in Cheltenham. Dave.

Paul, Yes, that did cross my mind. However, the "dots" on Cornwall's shield (they are actually "bezants" or golden roundels) are 15 in number. Also, Cornwall Constabulary produced a series of badges (of similar size and shape) which were clearly from that County (showing the full shield with a dark blue background) and either "SC", "PWR", "PMAS", WAPC etc. So, I don't think, on the balance of probabilities, it is connected with Cornwall. In fact, if I'm honest, I don't think it is police related at all. As an aside, the enamel background to the "CC" is actually GREEN and not the usual police dark blue. Dave.

There are no stars on it. They are dots! Dave.

If you read the posting and the attachments you will see that it applies to all Australian Police Forces. Dave.

I don't think he did any campaigning. He's simply copied/pasted an announcement made by the Australian Prime Minister. Dave.

Dave, These stars were awarded to those who had presented themselves for attestation in the Metropolitan Special Constabulary BEFORE midnight on 31st December 1914. They were worn on the left forearm only. For those ranks of Inspector and above the "ring" surrounding the centre and the centre itself was enamelled dark blue with the wording "Metropolitan 1914" and the inter twined "SC" centre showing in relief. Dave.

Brian, Not quite. I have the helmet plate , but the telling factor is the helmet itself. It's rather unusual top was unique to the Dorset Constabulary. So, my eyes are probably no better than your's. I'm glad to be able to ID it for you. Regards, Dave.

Brian, A old thread which has just been re-activated, hence my seeing it for the first time. I know nothing of handcuffs but I can tell you that the Constable in your photo is a member of the Dorset Constabulary. Indeed, that is the wording on his helmet plate. Dave.

I find the term "clothes number" a difficult concept to get my head around. Surely the object of a number on a police uniform is to identify the individual wearing the uniform to any person who wished to comment upon the actions of the wearer, adverse or otherwise. If it was simply to identify the item of clothing, then what was the purpose of the letter "R", or indeed Sergeants chevrons. Whilst on the subject, what about Senior Officers? I know that all members of the PSNI now display numbers on their uniform. But, Inspectors and above in the RUC did not display numbers............So, how were their clothes identified without a numbers? Dave

Jock, Following the end of the Second WW a large number of UK police officers were sent to Germany (and former occupied countries) as part of the British Control Commission. It seems reasonable to assume that they took with them British police marked steel helmets and this may be a possible source. Of course your suggestion of a memento from the Jersey or Guernsey Police (Channel Islands) is another possibility. It is a pity that there was no practice of overtly marking them with the name of the town or county that they related to. That said it is almost certainly the case that the outside markings would have been stipulated by the UK Government so as to standardise the outward visibility of such helmets when police were sent to different parts of the UK as part of mutual aid detachments. Finally, yes you are correct in assuming that they are civil police helmets. They would not be worn by the military. Best wishes, Dave.

Jock, If you find rank badges "painted" then I would take care in assuming that the markings are "original" and as issued. Over the years I've had a number of these helmets through my hands. In all cases those which have had rank markings have had such marking shown on the front (usually above the word "Police") and those markings have been in the form of a transfer or decal (not painted). In addition I've never seen any marked as such on the back of the helmet. For higher ranks the base colour of the helmet was white and not blue. Dave.