Gaffken

I remember replying to that one, too...was it removed? I think this thread was also the one that had the rare photo of one in actual wear, if I'm correct. Gaffken

Guys, I think I may have posted this before, but can anyone decipher what's scribbled here? Many thanks, Gaffken

Guys--many thanks, as always. I've been trying to decipher the obvious (visible) distinctions between the 3rd and 4th classes for some years now, but from what you all indicate, it now seems that telling a true 3rd class from a fake may require either really great & detailed scans, or having to hold the item in your very hands (sometimes not so easy to accomplish!). Seems like a very tough nut to crack...

So, ok--I'll go ahead and jump in with my typical dumb-question-of-the-thread intervention, but how exactly are a 3rd and 4th class MVO differentiated from each other then? The examples I've seen look almost identical in detail, except for the fact that one is silver, while the other is gold; is the latter only produced in real gold (ie, not gilt) perhaps? Ever clueless but curious, Gaffken

And lastly, as Stogie pointed out, the large A4 Urkunde to the same man in the second to last post above.

Next, the advertisement showing--as Kevin pointed out--the nominal cost of DM 6,75, marked by the checkmark in the lower right margin: (sorry for the small size--I couldn't scale it larger to fit here)

Next, the letter from the dealer:

Mine came boxed (just like the previous example), and has the double wire pin. Unfortunately, I don't have the miniature, but do have the documents (sorry to take this off-topic, but thought you might like to see them): First, the letter from Gen-Maj Puder:

Peter, I'll be the first to admit that I don't own one of these either and am thus no expert, but after seeing many a good pilot badge, I'm struck odd by the high placement of the pin on this badge, along with the pin 'well'. Seems very high and off the mark to me, though it appears consistent with the rest of the badge being struck off-center. My concern would thus lay in whether this would have legitimately passed a quality control test by the maker during the period if it were real--maybe someone else here would know better on that one (?). As far as details of the tank pictorial on the obverse, I've become accustomed to looking for certain facets that appear lacking here, including details of faces on the skulls under the tank's treads, and a viewport often seen in the center of the pilot house on top of the tank. Just some observations... Hope this helps, Gaffken

Guys--beautiful eagles; your examples really capture the wide variety of variations out there. Dan--to echo Rick's comments, I like your hinge, too--very distinctive, and not something a faker would obviously go to lengths to accomplish. Last year, I passed up an opportunity to purchase a 1st class with swords and oakleaves, and now I'm kind of kicking my self for doing so after viewing all of the nice examples here. Maybe subconsciously I was holding out for the mythical version with oakleaves, swords and diamonds...I'll never be quite sure! Gaffken

Hi WC-- Another fine cross; should we take the multi-piece construction and latch on yours to be standard features? I've seen a few crosses like Dante's before, so I wasn't sure what to think (?) Gaffken

Beautiful cross Wild Card! Not only is it the first ladies version I've seen in quite some time, but it's also easy to see the humanitarian and 'Red Cross roots' from your's, most evident in the rich enamel work. (I don't think I've seen one quite that vibrant before!) Gaffken

Thanks guys--that's great info; it almost appears to be a rough equivalent to the Prussian Cross for Ladies and Young Women from the same timeframe, if I had to venture a quick guess. Much appreciated! Gaffken

Gents--Could anyone enlighten me on the above? I've been doing simple searches, but can't seem to bring up anything on it... Many thanks, Gaffken

Gents--my first (very recent) foray into Yugoslav awards: a '5-torch' 3rd class star... Gaffken

Well, I stand corrected--there are two rivets on the reverse of mine afterall. (Steve: sorry for taking so long to post-back!) Gaffken

Thanks Steve--I'll try and get a photo of the reverse posted for you. From your info, I think mine might be a '57 version now, as I don't recall any visible attachments (rivets, prongs) poking thru on the backside. Nevertheless, I'm not too knowledgeable about Weimar-era stuff, so I appreciate the quick tutorial! Gaffken

No one's posted a screwback yet...are these kosher?

I?m a little hesitant to get into this discussion, but to dovetail on Dave?s remarks, it also appears relatively clear that the position of the EKI in both photos is different, which, if taken together with the different position of the flight badge(s), suggests to me that we?re looking at two different tunics. I won?t get into the discussion on the veracity of the flight badges themselves, but having spent 10-12 yrs working in the military, I can honestly say that no officer or soldier has just one tunic or blouse, especially when he?s in the field. In fact, a friend of mine recently commented that he had *sixteen* pairs of old BDUs that were now useless with the recent change in US camouflage, which also meant that a great number of them had matching insignia, rank tabs, and unit patches, possibly all in slightly and minutely different locations. Granted, not all officers have 16, but they usually have more than one, with identical accoutrements. Consequently, what leads me to believe that we have a two-tunic issue is the position of the EKI in post #32, which is clearly centered in the middle of the innermost ?slat? of his pocket, compared to the positioning of the same in post #34 (ie, from the large group shot), where the EKI is positioned further in, with the pin centered right on the edge of the ?bellows? of the pocket (ie, at the far right of the aforementioned innermost slat, not the middle)?you can just make out the edge of the bellows bisecting the EKI in the photo, despite the pixilation. Taken with the differing position of the flight badges that Dave pointed out, I?d say this speaks to a different set of sewn loops, suggesting another tunic (I?ll leave it up to you guys to decide on whether he had another set of badges for them). Believe me, if this guy was really wearing the only tunic he had in the field, I?d be standing on the far edge of whatever group photo I was ever in with him! (phew!) Just some observations, Gaffken

Hi Dan, The first recipient would be 'Pavlov, Sergei Nikolayevich' and the second [to the Ushakov medal, that is] would be 'Petrov, Igor Danilovich'. (assuming my eyes aren't fooling me) Great docs! Gaffken

I'll second Vince's recommendation--eMedals has always been a safe bet for me, along with Hermann Historica and Andreas Thies. Both have great catalogs to boot... Gaffken

Rick, Solomon--many (belated) thanks for your earlier responses; I think, in part, some of the confusion over the pinback stemmed from the OEK itself, which listed the dates of '1908-1909', when in fact they should have been a year further on. Another shortcoming of the limited references I have on hand. Although it looks impossible to determine who mine would have belonged to, I think my next step will be to see if I can track down some photos of either of the five gents that Rick mentioned--I think it would be interesting to see the cross in wear, at the very least! Cheers, Gaffken

Rick--great info--many thanks, as always, for your efforts. In reference to your listing for the second class cross under the 'second model' (OEK 1155), I was initially under the impression that I had the pinback from the first model (OEK 1146), which was awarded from 1908-09. In a photo in one of the older OEKs that I have, #1145 appears to be a direct match to WC's award in response #18 & 19 in this thread, so I simply assumed I had the pinback from the same series, which has similar features (silver arms, enameled center with rose). Consequently, I was under the impression that the second model had enameled arms with a rose in the middle, while WC's piece came from the 3rd model, which has enameled arms too, but also has the swallow and star in the middle instead of the rose (??) Would anyone be able to set me straight on this? Apologies in advance for the confusion, Gaffken

Ilja--amazing! I've never seen these before...I just wish I could read Chechen. The Groznyy medal is particularly interesting...it seems to show an image of the old Presidential Palace there. Are you aware of any more Chechen awards besides these? Gaffken

Solomon--excellent merit medal! And with the Urkunde, too--a rare combination. Unfortunately, my Leo Order didn't come with any provenance, so I don't think I'll ever know which of the 6 it belonged to. Would you (or anyone else) happen to have the names of the six in question? I'd nevertheless be interested to see who the contenders might be, as well as their ranks, just for fun... Regrets, Gaffken