Dave Danner

Odulf, regarding your gap: there were no regulations in the Weimar Republic, so "anything goes" was the rule, especially for civilians. Active Reichswehr members mainly followed the rules of their former army, so Prussians (and other citizens of most other states within the Prussian Army) followed Prussian rules, Bavarians followed Bavarian rules, and Saxons followed Saxon rules. But even here, there were lots of variations. For example: 1. Paul Platz, a Badener, has mixed Baden/Prussian precedence, then non-Prussian awards. 2. Friedemann Goetze, a Prussian, places his non-Prussian war decorations before his Prussian peacetime awards. 3. Bernhard Rust, a Bavarian, has his Bavarian MVO before the EK2, following Bavarian precedence, but his Saxon Albert Order with Swords ahead of the Bavarian Jubilee, which was not the Bavarian regulation (the Jubilee/PRLM came after the EK2 but before non-Bavarian awards). 4. Heinrich von Kummer, a Prussian, follows standard Prussian precedence. His Hamburg Hanseatic Cross comes before his Lübeck Hanseatic Cross, but I have no idea whether this is based on size, award date, or alphabetical order. The peacetime Order of the Griffin comes last. 5. Friedrich Salzenberg, a Prussian, follows standard Prussian precedence, but for his non-Prussian awards, the order is odd: BMV3X, WK3X, SA3aXKr, SA3aKr, BremH. This places a peacetime Saxon award before a wartime Bremen award. 6. Max Fiedler, a Saxon, follows Saxon precedence: Saxon war decorations, then EK2, then other Saxon (his Saxon DA), then non-Saxon (his RAO4).

There was no official order of wear. I think order of issue would be more likely than not, especially for co-equals like the three city states. For other combinations of state awards, sometimes alphabetically, sometimes order of issue, and sometimes by rank (kingdoms first, then grand duchies, duchies, principalities, and city states). Sometimes just personal (for example home state first) or aesthetic preference (for example crosses before medals). Prussian regulations had Prussian decorations first, but other states were by personal preference. There were no Weimar regulations. Wehrmacht regulations during World War II placed certain high decorations first, and then other state awards usually in order of issue.

Yours is a Knight 1st Class. The Grand Cross measured 106mm x 60 mm, the Commander's Cross 88mm x 50 mm, and the Knight's Cross 63mm x 38mm.

Here is a perfectly normal bar with a peacetime SEHO and no wartime award from a Saxon duchy. In this case, the recipient was a Stabsarzt. He entered active duty in 1898, so no Centenary, and apparently did not reach 25 years before leaving the service, so no DA. So it is quite possible, if not common. You would be looking for an active officer, since a reserve or Landwehr officer would likely have the LD2. He would have gotten the SEHO before the war, possibly while serving in a regiment with a Saxon connection, and been in a Hesse regiment during the war. Another possibility is a recalled regular officer, who entered service after 1897, got the SEHO around the ten year mark, and then retired and moved to somewhere like Darmstadt or Giessen. That said, I think it is just as likely that someone removed a wartime SEHO with swords, as Claudius suggests.

Probably his prewar Turkish Nishan-i-Medjidi. His ribbon bar includes his other neck orders (KO2, SA2aX, BZ2aX and SEK1X), which I don't think was Prussian custom. I can't tell, but it looks like either a Hesse Bravery Medal or Hamburg Hanseatic Cross after the SEK1X.

Outside of the major figures like some royals and generals and big name war heroes, basically have some connection to all three city states. German Bülle, for example, served in Pionier-Bataillon Nr. 9 and on the staff of the 17. Reserve-Division. PB 9 was the engineer unit for the IX Corps, which covered all three city states, and Bülle went into the field with its 4th Field Company as the engineer unit of the 17.RD. The 17.RD included regiments from Schleswig-Holstein and all three city states - IR 162 (Lübeck), IR 163 (Schleswig-Holstein), RIR 76 (Hamburg), and until October 1916 RIR 75 (Bremen). So with his engineer unit and in staff duties, he supported regiments from all three city states.

I don't have any references at hand, but I am pretty sure that some time in the 1920s or 1930s the Army and Navy came to an agreement to avoid duplicate awards, so I don't think there are any cases after World War I of this. The two services still had their differences, though. The Purple Heart, for example, was created by the War Department in 1932, so it was an Army-only award until 1942, when President Roosevelt by Executive Order extended it to the Navy and Marine Corps. And while the Army's DSC was always a valor award and was second to the Medal of Honor, until 1942, the Navy Cross could be awarded for non-combat heroism (for example lifesaving at sea, including awards to rescue divers) and ranked after the Navy DSM. The Army had created the Soldier's Medal for non-combat heroism in 1926, but the Navy did no create its Navy and Marine Corps Medal until 1942.

One for your list: Dr. German Bülle, born 18 January 1896, received all three as a Leutnant in Pi.-Btl. 9, along with the EK1 and the Wound Badge in Black. He received the Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer on 20 February 1935. This would match your ribbon bar, but only for another 18 months. He received the Wehrmacht Dienstauszeichnungen 4. bis 2. Klasse on 2 October 1936. He added the KVK2X on 1 September 1942 as Leiter der Militär-Geographischen-Gruppe Saloniki-Ägäis.

Yes. Before 1947, the Army and the Navy were completely separate services, under different Cabinet departments, and tended to do their own things. In World War I, a brigade of Marines was attached to the Army as part of the 2nd Division, and the Army awarded its decorations to Marines in this brigade. In most cases, the Navy then responded by also awarding its equivalent decoration. So of the six Marines awarded the Army Medal of Honor, five also received the Navy version. One Navy medical officer attached to the Marines received the Navy Medal of Honor for the same action for which the Army had awarded him the Army Distinguished Service Cross. Seventeen Navy men (8 medical officers, 8 corpsmen and 1 chaplain) and 326 Marines who received the Army Distinguished Service Cross also were given the Navy Cross for the same action.

Bührmann's file photo. Note that on the ribbon bar, which pre-dates the Wehrmacht long service awards, it appears he was still wearing the Baltenkreuz. Not enough detail in the photo, but it looks like if there may be a Bewährungsabzeichen on the Brunswick War Merit Cross.

4,126 total awards, of which 3786 were Prussian, and the rest from other German states and German allies. The main non-Prussian awards were from Bavaria and Austria-Hungary, which you would expect given their size, and Brunswick, which would be surprising until you realize that much of that duchy was located in the mining regions of the Harz Mountains. For the EK2w, just 64, but 1276 regular EK2s and 271 EK1s. The Prussian Merit Cross for War Aid (Verdienstkreuz für Kriegshilfe) is the most common, with 1646 awards. Other Prussian war decorations include two RAO4s on the black/white ribbon and 13 HOH3Xs. I'm not sure what you mean by WMK. I don't just have numbers. I have all the names, ranks (and units where available), and positions within the civil service. I would like to publish it in some format, but I don't know how much demand there is.

The cap badges look like the shoulder strap devices of IR 95. That would fit with the other stuff, which connects to Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. The guy in the front has the Carl Eduard-Kriegskreuz next to the EK1, and the Kriegs-Erinnerungszeichen next to the wound badge. The Carl Eduard-Kriegskreuz was Saxe-Coburg-Gotha's EK1 "analog", while the Kriegs-Erinnerungszeichen was created in the 1920s by the House of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. I don't know much about it, but since the Duke had abdicated in 1918, it would be an unofficial award. I can't make out the decoration on the older gentleman in back, maybe a veteran's association medal, but the medal bar appears to have several Saxe-Coburg-Gotha decorations. It looks like maybe a Saxe-Ernestine House Order Merit Medal, then an oval Duke Carl Eduard Medal, then some others.

Tamgha-i-Khidmat, from Pakistan.

Red Eagles on the statute ribbon were still awarded during the war to civilians and government officials. My study of awards to members of the Prussian Mining Administration shows 19 RAO4s during the war years, for example (also two RAO4s with the "50" device, but those two would have been in their 70s).

The Verdienstkreuz in Gold was a Prussian decoration established in 1912. It was mainly for civil servants. Here is an example from Helmut Weitze's catalog: And a link so hopefully Weitze won't mind using his image: https://www.weitze.n...ld__171873.html The "50" was a button attached to the ring, indicating it was awarded for 50 years' service. Here is an example of a "50" device on the Prussian General Honor Decoration. This came from Straube's website.

Oh that... As you may recall, the US Army is eliminating the green Class As and replacing them with the dress blues (returning more or less to the traditional Army Blue). Sleeve patches are not worn on the dress blues, so for the new uniforms, the right shoulder "combat patch" (officially "Shoulder Sleeve Insignia - Former Wartime Service") is replaced by a pocket fob. General Dempsey, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, commanded the 1st Armored Division in Iraq from June 2003 to July 2004. He was previously the XO of 3rd Brigade, 3rd Armored Division, during Desert Storm, so I suppose he could wear that unit's insignia instead. His official photo shows the 1AD fob: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Army_General_Martin_E._Dempsey,_CJCS,_official_portrait_2011.jpg

For tradition reasons, supposedly connected with Patton wanting the troopers to wear the patch close to their hearts, at various times different armor units wore their unit patch above or on a pocket rather than on the sleeve. There is a thread here with a bunch of pictures and some speculation: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=18511 While I was in the Army, the only units I recall encountering with patches like this were the 2nd Armored Division. However, that thread shows other examples. Besides armored patches, I have seen this done in one other context: during the 1980s and early 1990s, several active divisions had as a third "roundout" brigade a National Guard or Reserve brigade. These Guard and Reserve brigades had their own sleeve patches, but would sometimes wear the patch of the division to which they were attached above the right pocket. As I recall seeing when I was at Fort Benning, Georgia, the 48th Infantry Brigade Combat Team of the Georgia National Guard wore the patch of the 24th Infantry Division on the pocket while they were a roundout brigade. The roundout concept ended in the 1990s as the active Army shrank and the remaining active divisions filled out their missing brigades with those of deactivating divisions.

A small addition: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/52785-list-of-decorations-to-prussian-officers-and-men-in-1914/

Attached in PDF form is a list of awards for those interested in these sorts of things. These are awards by the Grand Duchy of Mecklenburg-Strelitz of the Order of the Griffin (Greifenorden) and of the grand duchy's Gold Merit Medal (Verdienstmedaille in Gold). The awards were all made to officers and men of the Prussian Army on July 21, 1914. Because they were awarded after its publication, they do not show up in the 1914 Prussian Army rank list. Also, because they were not gazetted in the Militär-Wochenblatt (MWB), they do not appear in Willi Geile's publication of awards from 1914 to 1918 published in the MWB and the Marineverordnungsblatt. I don't know why they were not in the MWB. I suppose they were missed because they came out right before the mobilization. The original list, with only last name and rank and unit, was gazetted in the Grand Ducal Mecklenburg-Strelitz Official Gazette for Legislation and State Administration (Großherzoglich Mecklenburg-Strelitzscher Offizieller Anzeiger für Gesetzgebung und Staatsverwaltung). I took that list and added in given names and the birth/death years where known. My thanks to Glenn J for his help on a few names giving me trouble. For those wondering why it takes so long and there is little reward for publishing these German award rolls: This list has only about 30 names. Yet it still took hours not merely to transcribe the names, but add in the relevant information (digging through various sources to identify who was who among, for example, some 47 von Arnims, 49 Freiherrs von Maltzahn, 15 Freiherrs von Esebecks, 16 Grafs von der Groeben, 18 Grafs von Hardenberg, 34 Grafs Strachwitz, etc. who served in the war). Multiply that times the hundreds or thousands for some of the bigger awards rolls and you see why this is a labor of love for those who do it, and pretty much unrequited love at that. Mecklenburg-Strelitz Verleihungen 1914.pdf

[Entschuldigungen für Fehler; mein Deutsch ist wie Rudi's Englisch gewöhnungsbedürftig.] Zu den Verleihungen in Sauers Artikel kann ich die folgenden Informationen hinzufügen. Am 14. März 1917, anläßlich des 25-jährigen Regierungsjubiläums des Großherzogs, wurde Demfolgenden die Krone zum Ehrenkreuz des Verdienstordens Philipp des Großmütigen verliehen: Berchelmann, Dr. Wilhelm - Oberlandesgerichtsrat Rüster, Dr. Ludwig - Geh. Justizrat, Landgerichtsdirektor bei dem Landgericht der Provinz Starkenburg Obenauer, Philipp - Landgerichtsdirektor bei dem Landgericht der Provinz Rheinhessen Kolb, Theodor - Landgerichtsdirektor bei dem Landgericht der Provinz Starkenburg Walther, Dr. Philipp - Geh. Oberforstrat, Vortragender Rat bei der Abteilung für Forst- und Kameralverwaltung des Ministeriums der Finanzen Bornscheuer, Konrad - Geh. Oberfinanzrat, Reichsbevollmächtigte für Zölle und Steuern zu Hannover Rohde, Dr. Ferdinand - Geh. Oberfinanzrat, stellv. Vorsitzender der Abteilung für Finanzwirtschaft und Eisenbahnwesen des Ministeriums der Finanzen mfG, Dave

I think the grade of the House Order of Hohenzollern you are looking for would be the Knight's Cross. With swords, this was the main Prussian award in World War I that was higher than the Iron Cross 1st Class but below the Pour le Merite. I do not know how prices are of late, but I think I have seen them in the 700-800 euro range recently?

Looks like the Luitpoldkreuz für 40 Dienstjahre im Staats- und Gemeindedienst.

Something to add to an older thread:

Paul, It was an order of knighthood, so it had a level of prestige the KVK didn't, although awarded for similar performance. I would say akin to the US Legion of Merit. Also, the class awarded depended on the military rank or civil status of the recipient. The Knight 1st Class would typically go to a Major or Korvettenkapitän, or the civil service/civilian equivalent.

Neither. It would appear to be Palestinian. "Shabibah Fatah" is the PLO youth movement.