Dave Danner

Completely unrelated to the Meiningen research, how about this combination? What would you read into this? As a start, after the first three Bavarian awards, the ribbons are in alphabetical order by German state, and then alphabetical order by foreign country.

It is the Wehrmacht DA4, awarded on 21 Dec. 1936. As to the Silesian Eagle, he got both classes. "Stufe", related to "step" in English, is another term used for "class" in various German decorations. The Bewährungsabziechen des V. Armeekorps is a Freikorps badge. It was a pinback badge in the form of a wreath surrounding a Roman numeral V.

Leopold Waldemar von Bredow was married twice. The marriage in Washington DC was to Frances Clara Newlands. She died on 22 August 1907 in Berlin. They had one daughter, Friederike Frances Adelheid, born on 2 November 1906. The second marriage was to Hannah Leopoldine Alice Gräfin von Bismarck-Schönhausen. The first wife wasn't a noblewomen, being American, but she was the daughter of a U.S. Senator, Francis Griffith Newlands, who served as U.S. Senator from Nevada from 1903 until his death in 1917. The problem with Bredow remains why, if it was his medal bar, he would wear only one of three foreign decorations. Italy could be explained by the war, but why neutral Sweden and not neutral Spain?

Sergeant Josef Schelshorn, from Thanning bei Wolfratshausen, to the north of Bad Tölz. Served mainly with the 1. Pion.-Ers.-Btl. and Pion.-Btl. 22 Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse - no date given Bay. MVK 3. Kl. mit der Krone und Schwertern - 25.4.18 Verwundetenabzeichen in Schwarz - 13.5.18 He was promoted to Sergeant on 20 March 1918, so maybe the photo dates from between then and the April 25 award of the BMV5cXKr.

Leopold Waldemar von Bredow also had the Knight's Cross of the Italian Order of the Crown and the Spanish Order of Military Merit 1st Class.

The Order of Oranje-Nassau had the white stripe, but the Order of the Golden Lion did not. It was yellow with the narrow blue edge stripe. However, almost every German recipient of that order appears to be royalty, with a first class award. If the separate ribbon bar Tim mentioned goes with it, the ribbon bar might be a pre-war KO4, Centenary, WF3b/WF3a, MG3. The the wartime medal bar added the EK2 and the mystery medal. I agree a Swedish Sword Order seems most likely, but I can't find a candidate either. I only can find one peacetime WF3/MG3 combo with a wartime WF3aX I can't rule out due to having other awards - Rittm. Kurt Freiherr von Senden-Bibran of KR 5. However, I can't find any evidence of a KO4 or the Swedish order. Recalled Maj.a.D. Hans Freiherr von Werthern had the prewar KO4/Centenary/WF3b/MG3 combo, as well as a wartime EK2 and WF3aX, but (1) no Sword Order and (2) he did have an Italian Order of the Crown (JK5), which should be there. I am left to conclude that the WF3aX doesn't belong. The EK2 might be the only wartime award.

I have now gone through the Kriegsrangliste entries of well over a thousand Meiningen-born Bavarian enlisted soldiers, and have found that: - about 1/4 have no decorations - another 1/4 or so have only a single decoration, either an EK2 or a Bavarian MVK or a SMM - another 1/4 or so have decorations from two states, usually an EK2 and MVK or an EK2 and SMM, occasionally an MVK and SMM - another 1/4 have all three: EK2, Bay. MVK, and SMM (plus perhaps other Bavarian awards or an EK1) - so far, only one has more than three states I still haven't found Rick's elusive Prussia/Bavaria/Baden/Meiningen combo. For that matter, I also haven't found my own elusive Prussia/Bavaria/Meiningen/Austria-Hungary/Bulgaria officer combo (though many other officers do have more combinations than the NCOs and enlisted men). The one I did come across is an aviator: Franz Hey, a Vizefeldw. u. Offz.-Stellv. who served from 1912 to 1918 with various flying units. He received the pilot's badge, EK1 & EK2, SMM, a Bavarian MVK (but it doesn't say what grade), and an unusual one, the Austro-Hungarian Silver Merit Cross on the ribbon of the Bravery Medal.

Officially, the MVM was supposed to be a lesser award: According to the 1915 regulations, "Die Fürstlich Lippische Militär-Verdienstmedaille mit Schwertern kann verliehen werden an solche Unteroffiziere und Mannschaften, die infolge einer leichten Verwundung oder einer im Feld entstandenen Krankheit dienstuntauglich geworden und nicht im Besitze des Eisernen Kreuzes oder dazu eingegeben sind." So it was apparently intended for soldiers wounded or rendered unfit for service due to illness in the field, who did not have the Iron Cross or weren't recommended for it. The Kriegsverdienstkreuz, by contrast, originally was supposed to require award of or recommendation for the Iron Cross, or other excellence in combat ("Für die Verleihung des Kriegsverdienstkreuzes ist Bedingung, daß der Vorzuschlagende das Eiserne Kreuz zweiter Klasse besitzt, von seinem Truppenteil hierzu eingegeben ist oder sich sonst besonders hervorgetan hat."), A March 1917 regulation said that if an MVM recipient later received the KVK, he was supposed to return the MVM ("Bei Verleihung des Kriegsverdienstkreuzes ist jede etwa vorher verliehene Militär-Verdienstmedaille an das Militärkabinett zurückzureichen."). However, there are numerous examples of this not occurring, so apparently this regulation wasn't followed in practice.

Another strange one: Lt. Herbert Koppenhagen received the Golden Bravery Medal on 9 December 1915, and the Iron Cross 2nd Class two weeks later, on 20 December. The actual acts for which he received the medals must have been earlier, because he is listed as receiving them as a Fähnrich in 23. bay. IR, but he was promoted to Leutnant on 25 October 1915 (his Patent was later, 22 March 1916). He gets the Iron Cross 1st Class on 28 March 1917 and the Black Wound Badge on 25 June 1918. So unlike your guy he does get another higher award in the EK1, but: (1) he's an officer, but no MVK (common for officer candidates though maybe the Golden Bravery Medal trumped that) and no MVO, despite being an infantry platoon leader at Verdun. (2) did I mention he was from Sachsen-Meiningen, born in Unterneubrunn and residing in Schleusingen, Kreis Hildburgshausen? No SMM or SMK either.

Rank is big factor, too. A large percentage of Silver Bravery Medal recipients were NCOs. Naturally, they would be more likely to have a DA. But they were also more likely to have an MVK, since the MVK wasn't just for acts of bravery but also military merit, and successful combat leadership was a big part of military merit. But a private could have a single spectacular act of bravery and get the Bravery Medal, and then otherwise fade back into obscurity as just another grunt. He's already got a medal more prestigious than the MVK anyway. What surprises me more than the lack of an MVK is that Pion. Stark served throughout almost the entire war and apparently never got promoted.

No need to dig further. Schießplatzmeister's #3 is correct. The point of the exercise was how similar an MMJO/MVO combination might be to a TM/MVK combination. The silver swords could be either for an MVO 4th Class or an MVK 2nd Class, and the MMJO and Bravery Medal ribbons were the same. And of course the SMK and SMM also used the same ribbon, so no help there. As for the other two Bavarian ribbons, a 1905 Jubilee Medal or 1911 Prinz-Regent-Luitpold-Medaille usually indicates an officer, since only certain NCOs were eligible for either medal. The DA could be an officer's 24, but that wouldn't really fit with only a 4th Class MVO, so more likely for an active NCO or a Landwehr officer/NCO. so... Arthur Emil Rudolf Hädicke - Born 5 November 1885 in Camburg, Kreis Saalfeld, Sachsen-Meiningen - Entered service 18 October 1906 in 5/10. bay. FAR - Gefreiter and Unteroffizier promotions in 1908, then Sergeant in 1912, Vizewachtmeister in 1913, Offizier-Stellvertreter in 1916. - Served in the war with several different Bavarian FARs and RFARs - EK2 (9.10.14), BsMV (5.11.15), BMV5bX (20.3.16), SMM (15.12.15), BPRLM, BD1, VAs (30.6.18) As an NCO, he was a Kapitulant, so I assume that's why he was eligible for the Prinz-Regent-Luitpold-Medaille. I've been trying to find some elusive Bavarian/Meiningen combinations, without luck, but while looking I came across this guy, who seemed interesting. Many of the Bavarian SMM recipients got only an SMM and maybe an EK2, while most also got Bavarian awards like the MVK and DA. But so far this is the only Meininger with a Bravery Medal I've come across.

The precedence is my mistake, not relevant to the original question. I actually wasn't sure how a Bavarian would place the non-Bavarian awards - after all Bavarian or after war awards but before other Bavarian. I'm still not sure actually, as I've seen it both ways. So I used later precedence, but without an FKE. Here is a revised version: Regarding the websites, if I manage to get them back up, I will have to extensively revise and update the MMJO bios now that the Bavarian personnel files are available. Regards, Dave

If you saw a ribbon bar with this combination, how would you interpret it?

I also have a boxed, slot-brooch Silver Star similar to Tim's. It is a Bastian Brothers Aug. 9. 1943 contract. For additional reference, here are a DFC and Air Medal with the wrap brooch in question:

This one, by contrast, is re-ribboned. It is an unnumbered DSC, by the style and quality a World War II-era example which probably was originally on a slot brooch, but re-ribboned on a wrap brooch.

The style of full wrap brooch in question was used in issued Silver Stars. Below are two Silver Stars from my collection: On the left N.S. Meyer, Inc., Purchase Order No. 1231, Aug. 16, 1943 Phila. Q.M. Depot On the right: Serial No. 104921 Medallic Art Co., Purchase Order 10408-Jan. 20, 1943 Phila. Q.M. Depot I also noted that the N.S. Meyer example is much thicker than the Medallic Arts piece, but less polished. It looks a bit like the one you showed above.

Etui:

The reverse:

When it arrived, I got a small surprise:

I picked up this FJO Knight's Cross a while back:

Thanks, Seeheld! For Munscheid, that has got to be the worst "Wilhelm" I've seen in all these rolls. And I did indeed find a Landsendorf in Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt.

3. Feldpost ______ d. 25. Inf.Div. ? 4. Feldhilfsarzt ______ Munscheid? 5. Adalbert Schmidt, Kantor, from ??? (name of a town in Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt) maybe "Lauschendorf"?

I have some German handwritten entries that are giving me trouble. Any help would be appreciated. 1. This looks like Unterarzt Thilo Capellen, but the name sounds odd. 2. Albert? Albus? ?

Actually, I'm not sure even that matters. The way the auction is set up, you would have to outbid everyone interested in the various neck and breast badges alone before you even got to the lots which are most attributable, the medal bar (lot 0046) and the document group (lot 0047). Even if you had the resources and the desire to keep the group together, you would have to be deterred by the fact that you would have a series of potential fights long before you had any chance of knowing it would pay off. You would budget your fight on how much it was worth for the entire group, and how much room you had in each piece, but the guy who only wants a BMV2XmSt or a RAO2X only has to know how much he's willing to spend on that. And there are plenty of so-called collectors who don't care about Zoellner or the history, but only about how much the big pretty enamel ones are worth. If they put the medal bar and document lots first, maybe one person could keep it together. If I already won those, I would feel slightly more comfortable in a bidding war for the others, but if I didn't even know if I would get the medal bar and documents, how much would I be wiiling to fight for what is otherwise just another EK1 or even a really nice RAO2X.

This is all I have. No medals, just the uniform.