Bill Dienna

Any chance that anyone can identify this rank ? I cannot seem to precisely identify it with the books that I have. Many thanks!

Thamks, Dave, for the comprehensive explaination! I have heard of reccomendations for awards being "downgraded" in World War II, usually when a distinction was made by someone between "regular army" personnel and those who entered after Pearl Harbor. That is, if a man was a professional soldier or a West Point graduate, some acts of valor were regarded as what was expected, and lesser decorations were given instead. I also have read of decorations being downgraded during the war when the prospective recipient was in a particular unit, such as the Japanese Americans or racially segregated units. But I didn't know of the upgrade procedure, and I was wondering if it wasn't someone's way of saying "We need more heroes. Let's upgrade the guy's award". It's reassuring to see that it is a part of a formally codified "chain of command" review process.

A few questions: If the DSC was an "upgrade" of his Silver Star: 1. Who actually makes a decision to "upgrade" ? ; and 2. Will he continuel wear the Silver Star ribbon as he does in the photos?

The only times that I am aware of Hitler wearing the Blood Order were on those occassions when he wore the brown shirt for ceremonies, specifically, the annual commemoration of the Putsch and the annual Reichsparteitag.

Does anyone know if copies of this medal have been made? A silly question, I think. Everything has been copied. Any information on this medal would be appreciated, such as any telltale signs of a copy, or notes about variations in designs of originals. If anyone would care to pm me regarding reputable dealers that would carry this medal I would be grateful. I have seen two dealers on the net that are offering this medal. Both of the dealers enjoy very good reputations to my knowledge. But there sems to be a variation in a particular part of the design of the medal as betwwen the examples that they are offering. Any insights would be appreciated! Thanks!

If the fellows producing the fake documents, badges, medals, and uniforms had shown the same initiative, creativity and work ethic while the Soviet Union still existed, we might not have won the cold war after all!

What does it say on the reverse of the photo????

I would have to disagree. I owned a cased first pattern example with the recipient's gold party badge. I was able to determine his name from the awards list. From that I learned that he had taken part in the Putsch as a member of the Stosstrup Adolf Hitler. I obtained his SA file from the National Archives. Then I located his son in Germany. I visited him and learned a great deal about his father. The son also gave me his medal bar, the Mother Cross awarded to his mother, a Christmas card from Goebels, copies of letters, and on and on. As to whether a list exists or might ever be found for the serial numbers of the recipients of the second pattern....anything is possible. It might well be buried within the unidentified documents from WW II that are in the National Archives or the German archives. Or it might have been destroyed or lost with other NSDAP materials during the war. There was a special "Office of 9 November 1923" that kept the records, responded to requests from Blood Order holders, and so on. I don't know where this office was located, but I have always presumed it was in Munich. that city was captured by the Americans and its files, if they sirvived, might well have been shipped back to the States; or simply ignored as unimportant, since they didn't relate to scientific developments, war crimes, and similiar topics. One final interesting note: The son of my Blood Order recipient told me about how the American troops took items from their apartment in 1945, including uniforms, a stamp collection, and other items. I learned that this fellows SA tunic, complete with the "Stosstrup Adolf Hitler" cuff title, had turned up several years ago in the hands of a veteran who called in response to a newspaper classified ad. The tunic was purchased, and was re-sold at the MAX show. What was interesting was this: the tunic, at the time that it was purchased from the veteran, HAD a Blood Order on the pocket. BUT this one was unnumbered! So it seems that holders of the Order could aquire additional examples for other uniforms. Or maybe it was just because this fellow was a deputy Gauleiter, and knew who to call to get a spare!

Hey Rick! When do we get an answer to the mystery?

I'm going to guess that the political oficer was Leonid Brezhnev. They gave him a Red Star. Forty years later, realizing the error of their ways, it was upgraded to the Order of Victory. A minor oversight at the time.

Maybe the cigarettes finally got to him.

I know. But I'm not saying.

Well...... More than ten bucks.... but not by very much.

He even had Jacob Reed, the tailoring company, add a special interior pocket for his glasses.

This recently came "out of the woodwork" at an auction. It is a 1963 dated tailor made tunic for a U.S. Army General, named on the tailor's tag and on the interior pocket as having been made for "General John K. Waters". General Waters was a 1931 graduate of West Point. He was a highly decorated armored officer who married the daughter of General Patton. He was taken prisoner, and at one point in the war Patton sent a column on a mission to attempt to liberate the P.O.W. camp in which Waters was imprisoned. Waters went on to rise to General Officer rank, and during the Vietnam war was commander of U.S. Army forces in the Pacific. Of course, at the auction it was just "an army jacket". It's always interesting what a little research can reveal about an object's history!

Chris... There was an engineer wing, though I do not recall the criteria for it. Also, it may be that if he was flight personnel he qualified for the air crew wing.

I suppose the only thing left is to try to find a retired employee who knows about the production methods used.

I do not own an RK of any type, and so I "have no horse in this race." I was wondering, though, whether anyone had ever gone directly to S&L to see if they could shed any light on their wartime production methods or figures? It also seems conceivable, though just barely, that someone who was working at S&L in 1945 might still be alive somewhere. Is there any possibility of going directly to the source on these questions of production methods and production techniques? In other words, to find out if there were indeed "parts bins" for components of RK's used as part of the production method. Or is the entire subject verboten, particularly in light of the wandering dies?

Be careful, Rick... Just publicly announcing that you are thinking about it might lead someone to claim that by you cannot "attempt" to purchase one, or "solicit" the purchase of one, unless you first think about it. You may have already commited a predicate offense. But from a grammatical standpoint...what exactly are you doing if you "solicit the purchase" of a medal? I thought that you "solicit" sales, not purchases.

It illeagal to purchase a Medal of Honor. Whether or not you actually take physical posession of it doesn't seem to matter.

And of course, in this day and age of international and domestic tranquility, the money, time, and resources of law enforcement agencies such as the FBI could have no higher priority than investigating militaria collectors and historians. It's not as though there are any real criminals about. Of course, there still have been no arrests made with respect to the person or persons who sent anthrax-contaminated dust through the U.S. mails, leading to the deaths of several persons. And Osama Bin Laden is still at large and presumably in contact, directly or indirectly, with sleeper agents here in this country. And the Mafia remains active in all of the rackets, from gambling to drugs. And recent years have seen the most devastating penetrations of American intelligence agencies, including the FBI, by spies for foreign governments. But lord knows we need those agents patroling the ailes of the major militaria shows, scanning display cases and riker mounts in a search for the REAL criminal element. The whole idea, the entire concept of this waste of government time and money and energy in this day and age is enough to make one feel ill.

I suggest that the efect of this legislation will be to significantly increase the value of the non-medalic items in groups, such as the recipient's uniform, official award documents, his canteen, and so on. Why? Because with the law prohibiting the sale of an awarded Medal of Honor, anything else connected with the recipient will have to take its place in the collecting world. Of course, if a collector has an awarded Medal of Honor and he sells the recipient's uniform, documents, etc., he will most likely not wish to see the grouping split apart from the medal. And so after selling the recipient's non-medalic items for a significant sum, he will most likely then just give the actual Medal to the new owner of the other items.

A review of the official published legislative history of the Crime Control Act reflects that the original intent was narrow and focused: the authors of the act wanted to prevent persons who had not been awarded Medals of Honor from aquiring them and posing as recipients of the award. There were several instances of fake heroes being exposed in the early 1990's, and the initial act was intended to stop this practice. However, like so many things governmental, everybody wanted to get their two cents in, and the result was the oppressive legislation that was ultimately passed, a measure well beyond the original intended purpose.

Is there an alternative to engraving that would be just as "permanent"? What about having a small plaque engraved with his name and particulars? A thin but strong wire is run through the PLM suspension loop and then both of its ends are soldered or riveted to the small plaque. Would this work to preserve the history in fashion that does not alter the decoration itself? I must say that I'm torn on this question. On the one hand I hate to think of original Order being altered. At the same time, I wonder...if an American Civil War soldier received a medal from his regiment, unnamed, in 1862, and his grandaughter had it engraved with his particulars in the 1930's, would that really hurt the history of the piece or would it enhance it? I once saw a post Cival War badge that was created for those officers who had served on the staff of General George Meade. It was unnamed, although there was space on the reverse where it could have been named. And I wondered "Was this worn by a Civil War veteran, or did it appear years ago from the sale of unsold jeweler's stock? Did it have a personal history, or was it a representative object?". If it had been named by his daughter or grandaughter...well, all in all, though, I suppose that the best scenario from my point of view would have bee a paper label or note with the unnamed badge that gave its particulars.

Yesterday at the flea markets I found a complete posthumous U.S. Purple Heart from World War II. It was cased, within its white protective box, with the enclosure card from the Secretary of War. It was officially hand-engraved to Private John Kurland, a soldier in the 18th Infantry Regiment, 1st Infantry division. What made this decoration even more noteworthy was the fact that within the box was a letter to Kurland's Mother, written on May 17, 1945, from the Lt. Col. of the regiment. Within the letter he writes to provide "additional details" of Mrs. Kurland's son's death. In a rather lengthy letter he notes that her son was courageously taking part in an assault on an enemy position in Dessau when he was "killed instantly" by a German sniper. He informs her that he was buried in an American military cemetary with a Catholic Chaplain presiding. Kurland does not appear on the rolls of the American Battle Monuments Commission, so he did not remain buried overseas. This is the first Purple Heart that I have ever owned where there was a direct attribution of a death to a "sniper", as opposed to simply "killed by enemy fire". While many soldiers I think often attributed a solitary shot to a "sniper", in this case the letter was written some time after the soldier's death, and it seems to reflect a specific effort to provide further details for Kurland's mother, I suspect in response to an inquiry from her. For that reason I tend to think that in this case the action report and witnesses almost certainly identified an actual sniper as having been present and responsible for the death of Private Kurland and perhaps others as well. I will try to post a photo or two later.