peter monahan

Brian You're probably right. On closer examination, the ground down hilt also fights more snugly in the hand than the original configuration, so quite possibly a regimental / base armoury modification. That would explain the nice little touch with the melted lead as well - not perhaps so easy or likely for a bored private to manage easily in bivouac or the lines.

" “Have you news of my boy Jack?” Not this tide. “When d’you think that he’ll come back?” Not with this wind blowing, and this tide. “Has any one else had word of him?” Not this tide. For what is sunk will hardly swim, Not with this wind blowing, and this tide. “Oh, dear, what comfort can I find?” None this tide, Nor any tide, Except he did not shame his kind — Not even with that wind blowing, and that tide. Then hold your head up all the more, This tide, And every tide; Because he was the son you bore, And gave to that wind blowing and that tide! Not sure how much the movie covers of this, but Kipling used his connections to get his sickly, underage son into the army. Two consequences, other than life long guilt, were that he wrote the official history of the Irish Guards in the First War and that he was instrumental in setting up and promoting the Imperial [later Commonwealth] War Graves Commission. In fact, the inscription 'Known to God" on the tombs of unnamed soldiers is attributed to Kipling.

The Royal Newfoundland Regiment went over the top at Beaumont Hamel, July 1, 1917, 778 men strong at 9:15. By 9;45 the attack was over. 68 men answered the roll that evening, 710 were killed wounded or missing. The entire population of the island at the time was 240,000 and it is said that there was not a single adult on the island who was not a relative or neighbour of one of those men. In Newfoundland, unlike the rest of Canada, July 1st - Canada Day - is not considered a day of celebration.

I would assume an officer who worked his way fro Captain to General and simply kept his junior rank epaulettes. I recently bought a modern Canadian dress tunic which came with two sets of epaulettes, one for Mess and one for Full Dress I think, so it wouldn't be uncommon for a man to have more than one pair of epaulettes, as you can't simply pop off one set of rank badges and put on another with the corded epaulettes, I know, because I've tried, and you risk damaging them, so far better to have multiple sets! Also a relatively cheap memorial of one's rise through the ranks!

It was being used by both British and French in the Napoleonic period, when I think it originated. The British went from shoulder slings to waist belts for swords in that period - both were still being used in 1810 but by 1830 only waist belts. Don't know whether the British stole it from the French or vice-versa, as my knowledge of French uniforms is sadly lacking, but I'd guess one or the other originated the style. Certainly the arrangement of straps, hook and the lions' heads are virtually indistinguishable at that time.

Chris That's pretty clearly why someone invested a lot of sweat in filing down the hilt so that there is no trace discernible of any unit marks! "Dunno, sir. Found it lying in a trench. Just like this. Honest, sir!'

Anybody remember the 'Fighting Sullivans'? It's an old movie - 1944 original - based on the five brothers who joined the US Navy and all died the same day on the USS Juneau, sunk in the Battle of the Solomon Islands. The five enlisted together on January 3, 1942 with the proviso that they be kept together - against Navy policy but apparently winked at - and died on or after November 13, 1942 when their ship was torpedoed by a Japanese sub. At least their family got an official visit from three USN officers with the news! The USN christened two successive destroyers as the USS The Sullivans. Both hasd the motto "We stick together". The son of one of the five served on the first of the two destroyers. R.I.P.

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Picked up an interesting item in T.O. today: Ross Rifle bayonet, no scabbard and 'modified'. It is standard length, etc, has all the right marks: proofed, C- broad arrow, 4/13 date stamp. However, the locking catch is gone and the holes, plus the groove on top of the hilt have been filled in with melted lead. Done fairy neatly but then both blade and hilt filed, the blade to sharpen it. On the pommel, a lot of metal has been filed away, I think to remove the unit identifying marks. I wonder whether this is a post service private project or whether somebody decided to make himself a trench knife with a nice heavy handle and no embarrassing QM stamps on it. Anyone ever heard of such a thing before?

Richard The Indian Military History Society publishes a quarterly journal called Durbar, in which there have been a number of articles in recent years on actions in Africa involving Indian and African troops. The new web site for the group will soon be posting back issues. In the meantime, the Secretary, Tony McClenahan, may be able to direct you to a member with knowledge of the event. http://imhs.org.uk/contact.html

Paul $40-50.00 for a singleton Victory medal is a safe ball park figure, I think, in the absence of complicating factors like rare unit, decorations or death.

"If you have any poo to fling, now would be a good time." Two points for IDing the quote. Get it off your chest. Or your sister's chest, as the case may be. I wasn't sure where Chris was going with this, but I see and applaud. Plus, Chris, I'm sorry I said you were ... whatever I said you were! Now if only some of the silent members can slice their way through the old fart [valued senior members] verbiage and get a word in edgewise!

Interesting. Not sure I'm convinced, but interesting. I wonder what percentage of French soldiers, for example, came home. Not 80% I'll bet! And of those 80%, what percentage were missing limbs, or health, or some of their sanity? I'm sure there were many vets who were satisfied that their sacrifice was both necessary and effective. But I doubt that means that very many thought the actual process of war was anything but awful. how many strolls through picturesque French villages would it take to make up watching a mate drown in his own fluids after a gas attack? Nevertheless, very much food for thought. I must confess to feeling some real guilt, as I read it, for the simplistic way I've taught the 'causes of WWI' to classes in the past, all neatly wrapped in one 75 minute session! Thanks for posting this, Irish! Peter

Sure! Lower the tone of the discussion by bringing politics into it, why don'cha? [Please don't tell my mother I'm a politician. She thinks I play piano in a brothel. ]

Yes, I think so. Men were at the front.

You mean there's more? Our pastor once told us he and his wife had prayed for children every night for years, then someone said 'That's not how its done.' Now they have six.

And the poor bloody citizens lined up to enlist, terrified that it would be "over before Christmas" and that they'd not get a chance to 'teach the bloody XXX a lesson'. Lions led by donkeys indeed, but lions who put themselves into uniform and lined up to be led. Because...? Because it was a different world and they looked at it differently than we do now. If we'd been there, liely we'd have thought as they did, because we didn't have grands and great-grands who lived through four years of Hell! History is easy! Living is hard. Never mind world politics, international trade debt and imperialism, just tell me who'll win in Brazil next year. Now, I mean. I'll die happy and rich! Do we really think that the politicians, economists and kings had a good clear grasp of what was happening? As I was fond of telling my students in civics class, running a government is not like steering a ship or a plane. Its more like driving a train, with somebody else - God, public opinion or the Flying Spaghetti Monster - laying the track. No coincidence that the French had a marvellous plan for getting their troops to the Front but apparently none for getting them back into barracks peacefully should the war somehow be averted! Ther were empires, arms races and rabid rabid nationalism. And generals who wanted to try their toys. And citizens who hated 'them, over there, the different ones.' Tell me its different today!

I agree that its not quite right for British but, as you say, Mervin, lots of copies of that style - which dates back to at least 1800 BTW.

Yep, like my wife says, "Men are all hands and mouth!" I think she was talking about food!

The down side of 'pals battalions'! After the Somme in particular, there were streets in some English towns where half the homes got a telegram. I once spoke to a man who as a 14 year old boy delivered telegrams during WWII. Worst job in the world, he said, especially as, at least the way he remembers it, whenever he turned into a street, everyone would come to their windows to see where he'd stop. Wouldn't do that for a pension and a gold medal!

Yes, I'm busily trying to track down the Army & Navy Veterans flag which featured in earlier posts, as I live just down the road from Canadian Forces Base Borden, whose museum is the putative home of the flag. Fascinating stuff. And Mr. Brophy seems to have been a great self promoter as well, no doubt, as a mainstay of the A& N group.

Richard Have you tried sending a PM to Megan? She's a whiz on international medals.

That's a classy little bauble, Ulsterman. What is it? Or should I already know?

I'm late to this one, so I'll shoot quickly and duck for cover. 1) Yes, lots of blame to go round. 100 years later, how much does it really matter which percentage goes to which leader/nation/general? The poor bastards in the trenches are still dead. 2) Yes, its fashionable to downplay heroism and damn all soldiers as dupes or villains. Most were neither and we do need heroes, always and everywhere. Give me a pukka hero with an inflated kill count over a guy who shoots a sports projectile - puck, basketball or cricket ball - any day! 3) Governments, especially in this case of Great Britain, are hardly going to announce a full court 4 year celebration of idiocy, slaughter and man's inhumanity to man, are they? So, in the face of lots and lots of evidence, it will be presented as 'a noble sacrifice'. And, having said that, I am currently working on a WWI programme to take into the schools in my area. just lettered all my webbing with the serial number of a great uncle who spent 11 months in 1917 in the trenches and never got over it. What I hope to convey to some of our young adults is: a) it was a slaughter; b) sensible people did it for four years; so c) just writing them and it off as 'stupid' is a good start to having it happen again! Done. Peter

"Attributed" sounds nice! Not like you're going to flog it off for millions of quid, right? A nice little early bar any way you look at it.