peter monahan

I'm torn. I saw a fair bit of Tuareg work years ago in Nigeria, where the long drought of the 1970s had driven many of the tribe, and actually own a nice blade with a [carve wood] 'antelope horn' handle. The blade decorations and leather work certainly look as if they could be Tuareg but the handles are not like any I recall or have seen since, so I'm not convinced either way. Could be Tuareg, but could be someone else's work too, IMHO, perhaps even Iraqi. Not a huge difference between many 'primitive' blades, given the materials used - common to much of the world - and the relatively simple styles, unless the piece has a really distinctive component, such as the 'Tuareg cross' handle in Ispn's first photo. Ispn, how did you get into that unusual collecting field, if I may ask? Peter

In a small town, if you get a wrong number, whoever answers the phone will tell you correct one. In a really small town, they'll tell you whether he's home or not! New Hamburg is a really small town. I know 'cause I went there once on a Sunday, but it was closed!

Nice piece, Colin. Where did you turn it up?

Yes, I did know that many many POWs were taken. The killings seem to have been relatively few in number, though a number of units did them, not just the BV Carbineers. Didn't know about 'Khaki Lice' either, but not surprised. British troops, mostly townsmen, would have had little knowledge of how to live on the veldt without becoming pigs and were probably too arrogant in most cases to watch the locals and learn. I think I mentioned that the Boer wearing khaki was mostly out of necessity but, again, it hadn't really occurred to me how isolated they were nor that they wouldn't have known the rule on enemy uniforms. As you point out, they were citizens, not professional soldiers. [i knew 'commando' wasn't right, but was in a hurry. Sorry!] Thanks again for the information. Peter

Rodian You clearly know a lot more detail than I! I've done a tiny bit more reading, including a quick skimm through parts of "Scapegoats of the Empire" by George Witton[have I got that name right?], the 3rd man convicted. Its pretty clear that Kitchener's orders were to 'take no prisoners', not unlike the order apparently issued before D-Day, but Morant and the others were charged after capturing Boers, disarming them and THEN shooting them. Plus shooting the Reverend, of course. In fact, one incident which occurred early one had the Carbineers send out a patrol, under the Sergeant Major, to shoot 6 Boer who were coming in to surrender. they fired on the wagon with its white flag but stopped for fear that there might be women and kids inside, took it, confirmed that there were only the 5 commandos and then shot them. It's also clear that Taylor was a bat hat - played in the film by a scar-faced man - who got off when he was at leastr as guilty as Morant and Hancock. So, two guiity men who got railroaded. Not an impressive chapter in any nation's story! Peter

Sad to see any proud service vessel go to her grave, or the breaker's yard. Especially for those who served on her. I'm sure they're be many a toast raised to the class in the dockside pubs and Legions. God bless them all and all who sailed in them!

"Just one small thing I would like to add: In reality two Boers were also found dead, stripped of clothing and mutilated at the scene of the skirmish." Rodian Do you mean the skirmish in which the Carbiniers CO was killed or the one in which the Boer attacked the prison where the three were held? In the latter case, BTW, they were apparently released to help hold of the attack. Not 100% sure that happened but will try to check!

Yeah, sex will do that to you! Actually, I did a course many years ago on English Crime and Criminal Justice. My favourite tidbit was the constant plaint, from Cromwell on up, of 'jury lawlessness'. That is to say, jury's simply refusing to convict when they felt the crime shouldn't be criminal or that the penalty was too harsh. It was apparently the rule that 'theft to the value of 30 shillings' was what got a bloke topped or transported. It was therefore not uncommon to have juries convict with such patently absurd findings as 'guilty of the theft of 10 yards of fine silk, to the value of 29 shillings' or, even better, 'guilty of the theft of 3 pounds, to the value of 29 shillings'. "Yes, you can punish him, but not too much." Of course, one factor in the prevalence of the death penalty and such other barbaric punishments was the fact that jails were really only meant to hold the accused until trial, not set up for lengthy sentences until the at least 19th century, so a 'prison sentence' as we know it was usually not an option. And topping them was felt to discourage both crime and social unrest, both real worries in a society where a very few held most of the wealth and power! Not like any countries we know today!

My impression, based on a little subsequent reading, is that the movie is essentially accurate. Barring the dramatic licence of Hancock having a snappy comeback for everything, and maybe he did, the facts were correct. As the lawyer advocating for them, and the film, point out there were orders given by Kitchener, or at least his headquarters to shoot Boers captured with British weapons or in British uniforms. There had been cases of Boers using the uniforms to surprise British outposts and patrols but, again as the film points out, most of the civilian population were in concentration camps - a British invention, BTW - and the hold-out Boer fighters were starving, reduced to following British columns to pick up ammunition dropped from badly made bandoliers and wearing whatever clothes they could steal or forage, including parts of the British uniforms. I'm not sure there's evidence that the Boer mutilated the CO of the Bushveld Carbineers, the incident in the film which precipitates Morant's first order to shoot prisoners. It seems a bit out of character for the Boer, but these were, after all, the hard cases who refused to come in even after many of their leaders had surrendered and there were certainly recorded cases of Boer waving white flags then firing on advancing Brits. Pretty clearly, the act which saw them tried was the murder of the German missionary, which had the Kaiser breathing fire and threatening to get involved, well before Britain was ready to contemplate a conflict with Germany. However, as Rick points out, he WAS a spy and the line between he and Boers must have seemed pretty slim by that point in the war. The Imperials were faced with the same anger and frustration, not to say real danger, of fighting by a set of rules which the enemy used to its advantage! Much like so much of the 'asymmetric warfare' Western soldiers face in places Iraq and Afghanistan or Vietnam. On the other hand, as 'their lawyer' and the film point out, they did do it and, both by our rules and the rules and laws of the time, one of the things separating 'us' form 'the wogs' was that we didn't stoop to their methods whatever the justification. Finally, the film has it right about the process: stacked to the rafters to ensure the verdict and the executions so London could look good. I see the Aus. governments point - they were probably 'legally' innocent, or could certainly have made a case for it in a fair trial but morally? Not so much. I think the over-turned verdict is great, as an important symbolic act, because symbols are important. Pardons might be a bit much. Lecture over!

Rustic English villages of the eighteenth century had crime? I'm shocked! Shocked, I tell you! I though they were full of rosy cheeked milk miads and stalwart local shepherds who sat about the pub drinking home brew - but not too much - while singing rustic folk songs in four part harmony and tugging their forelocks respectfully to the jovial old squire, the firm but fair and only enforcer of the King's peace. Clearly I have been misinformed! Steps will be taken!

Bizarre, but pretty typical of the notion thast soldiers are somehow braver, more worthy etc than yer humble PC Plod. Sheer B***ocks IMHO, but quite persistent. It's noteworthy, I think, that the first female soldier in the US Army to see 'combat' - shots fired at her be an angry enemy - was apparently an MP, who was involved in the US operations in Panama against Noriega. I'd guess that no one expected her unit to meet any angry Panamanians, so it was deemed 'acceptable' for her to accompany the unit. 'And then life happens.'

I know nothing about the source of these and not much more about the helmets but a good friend of mine sells some quite nice replicas of this style - Blues and Royals, I think - turned out 'over there'. Good workmanship but the plumes aren't real horse hair for because its too hard to get across the border. Have already seen one of the repops [pretty sure] being sold as real on a dodgy web site. Caveat emptor!

When I was in college - back when dinosaurs still roamed the Earth - there was a fad for web belts, khaki bags and other such militaria among youngsters, including me, who'd never served in an army. When the supply of surplus began to dry up - late '70s, early '80s - the factories of South East Asia jumped in and produced countless variations on Pattern 37 webbing. Many were actual copies but a good number were 'in the style of': khaki web, brass fittings, etc, but no attempt to be faithful to the originals. Are there any stamps, however blurry, on the belt? That is usually a sign that it was military issue at some point in its life. peter

I can't speak to the reutation of the KGL Infantry much, though I believe they were considered good troops - the Prince of Orange was an aberration no army should have had to deal with - but the KGL cavalry regiments were considered superior troops because of their discipline. Other mounted troops, including British, seemed to have made a habit of losing control during charges on enemy formations. British heavy cavalry, for example, got badly cut up by Polish Lancers at Waterloo after charging French troops and routing them but pursuing until their own horses were badly blown and then getting bogged in soft ground where the Poles speared them like sausages. The Heavies simply ignored the 'Halt' and 'Rally'. The Colonel of the Scots Greys was killed by a Pole as his horse bogged belly deep in mud and the unit took heavy casualties. The problem, as Napoleon famously says in the movie "Waterloo" was that they were 'the finest cavalry in Europe' and the worst led - 'hell for leather and devil take the hindmost' - while units like the KGL charged boot to boot and used the mass of the formation to do the work. You can see the action here, though it cuts off before the Colonel's death:

Nice looking awards. Again, the different coloured ribbons is an especially good idea! Are there more to come?

I think I prefer type 2, but either way, brilliant work, both of you. Thanks for sharing! Peter

Darn, your good, Timo!

Hmm! Good point, Timo.

Possibly for a pipe band or similar organization with [unofficial] links to the regiment? I'm not an expert by any means but the lugs on the back of the belt plate look odd to me. The military version are more usually circular, mushroom shaped in cross section. Lovely workmanship, though, especially on the smaller pendant. Peter

Ken I stand corrected! Lambert I agree that knowing more than the name is part of the real joy of collecting medals! When I had a collection it was all to Indian soldiers from the old British Empire and when I started the name on the medal was all the info. available, which was always disheartening. Best of luck with your project. Peter

I should have mentioned stretchers too. I made a crude but effective one by connecting two semi-circles of thick wood - 2" thick - with one of the turnbuckle used on clotheslines. [Total cost about $5.00] It has an eye on each end, which I pinned into the wood through slots on the flat sides of the wooden pieces, and the middle section is a long bolt threaded left hand on one end and right hand on the other, so that turning the center section either lengthens or shortens it. I hope that's clear. If not, PM me and I'll send you a photo of same. Put it into the helmet loose and very gently turn the center section until it pushes the sides out to the position you want. be prepared to wait weeks for the 'new' shape to become permanent! Good luck.

I'm thinking someone in a liason role, possibly with diplomatic connections/service? The best array of foreign gongs I've ever seen, years ago now, was to the senior station master at the London railway station where the boat trains from the Continent pulled in -Waterloo Station? He had about ten [lowest class] orders from every foreign head of state who'd come through during his 20+ years of service. And, I think, 1 or 2 British medals from army service. Stunning array of bling but 'nobody you'd know'. To track this one down, you'll need to look for all the awards of each foreign medal - in the Gazette, as you say - and look for the man/men who appear one each list. You've a bit of reading ahead of you! Good luck!

I started reading this thread at Post 1, as I'd never seen the posts before and all I can say is that if the Order of the Torch of Kilimandjaro was designed by Spinks and Sons, the Tanzanians got robbed! " Uuuug-lee", to quote The Lion King. Megan, your two posts are quite attractive however. I applaud the notion of different medals for civil and military service or merit too. If its worth doing, its worth doing well! Sad how few awarding authorities these days seem to feel that way, or do but let themselves be over ruled by the penny pinchers in the [fill ion favourite useless government department here]. Peter

Chris When you say "From a French troops medal parade this week..." do you mean they fell off and were picked up afterwards, bought fro a troop in a pub or...? Enquiring minds wish to know! Peter PS. Where exactly, 'east of Toronto' are you hanging your hat these days?

Not to rain on your parade, Lambert, but be prepared for a wait if you order direct from LAC. The government - no names, but his initials are Stephen Harper - has gutted the staff there and a friend tells me the place is like a morgue these days. The wait time for documents is now measured in months. The other option is find a researcher in Ottawa who'll do the leg work for you. As you have name, service number and all it may not be too pricy. Mike, is there anyone you know and might recommend?