peter monahan

Great sleuthing, gentlemen! I never cease to be amazed, not only by the breadth, and depth, of the knowledge regularly demonstrated on this site, but by the eagerness our members show in responding quickly and completely to almost every query. A bunch of frustrated teachers, perhaps? And that's a GOOD thing! I taught school for 33 years and now I work in a museum and lurk on militaria sites answering what few questions I can. Also 'teaching' in its purest form. Peter

I have always had my suspicions about how the shaving/hair cut regs were interpreted in the nineteenth century. Someone once pointed out that the marvellous beards seen in Crimean War photos said as much about the advent of photography as the did about how often Tommy Atkins shaved. Remember that Pioneers were allowed beards because, in theory, they left camp ahead of the main body to clear roads and put in bridges. AND, in the Georgian period 'shaved' meant shaved twice a week, on Wednesdays and Saturdays! So, while parade ground generals may very well have worked themselves into vapours over 'long hair', many officers on campaign or stationed in remote outposts of the Empire probably turned a Nelsonian blind eye on hirsute subordinates. Check any group of photographs of soldiers in ANY combat unit and try and find one where everyone is wearing the same head gear. Hardly ever happens! Wellington was notoriously hard on officers who didn't wear the correct uniform but of his men demanded only that they fire four rounds a minute and beat the trench. I suspect that that sort of pragmatic attitude was far more common than the regulations and drawing/paintings/prints - usually modeled on 'garri-troopers' - suggest. My tuppence worth! Peter

Monkey Very nice story and all garnered from one piece of paper. well done! "My comment: Wikipedia is quite explicit about his service at Waterloo and then Paris, but I can not find him on the Waterloo Roll (a mystery that needs some investigation)" Sadly, this illustrates the limits of Wiki as a research source. Unless the source of the info. on Waterloo is footnoted in the Wiki article, it is possible that it is simply incorrect. Could be either a transcription error or perhaps a 'fact', part of the story of the man among his descendants, a common phenomenon in which descendants 'improve on' the deeds of a distinguished ancestor.

A friend once received a packet labelled "Photographs Do Not Bend" to which some helpful sod at the post office had added "Yes they do!". And he was right! :(

Nice to see some 'ordinary' people getting much deserved recognition for doing extraordinary things. Huzzah for Ontarians!

Truly an Warrant/NCO of heroic proportions! Saw the movie [no comment] and it seems to have painted him as fairly true to life. Stand down, SM and rest in peace.

Leclerc I hate to sound like a naysayer so often, but spent 2 decades worth of Saturdays hanging about medal shows and medal shops and over and over watched guys plunk down big bucks for something they wanted desperately to be 'real', even when the evidence to the contrary seemed overwhelming to an observer not interested in the item. We can get obsessive pretty quickly in this hobby and I have done the 'Have to have it! Now!' thing myself. In this case, the odds are against it being: what it says; and worth the price! Think of what else you can buy, confident in its/their origins for the price of this item! Peter

Wow! Definitely a keeper. I read all the PC Wren books on the Legion - 5 or 6 in all, I think - as a teenager. Even then the hearty English racism was a bit off putting but boy could that man write! And, of course, his having served with the LE was the icing on the cake to a 14 year old. I'm afraid to re-read them in case they don't stand up, but I'd have snapped up that medal in a minute if I'd seen it, even though I don't even collect any more. Well done, that man! :)

You might also consider tracking down Ed Haynes, a real expert on all things Indian. He used to frequent this forum but no longer does so but I think he is still active on OMSA [Orders & Medals Society of America] and has his own site - "SA Gongs" - here: http://sagongs.ipbhost.com/ He is a bit prickly but very very knowledgeable. Good luck. Do let us know if you find out anything interesting, please. Peter

I know that the actual medals were of surpassing crudity - looked as if they'd been cast out of old tire weights or fishing sinkers by a not-very-handy bazaar wallah. Possibly a reflection of the real opinion held by the 3rd Reich of their untermensch foreign volunteers. I don't think I've ever seen a genuine star and maybe only 2-3 fakes in 35+ years of interest in all things Indian but the general consensus even 20 years ago was 'steer clear'. Because they are seen by Nazi & SS collectors as German decorations of surpassing rarity, some of the very many and in some cases very skilled fakers of that collecting field have had a go at making them up. In other words, as Paul says, unless you have the award document AND a signed affidavit form the awardee, clutch wallet firmly in one hand and walk rapidly in another direction! :(

GC This could turn into a very useful project! 'Unknown' eagles turn up on this and many other forums on a very regular basis and many in fact turn out to be from the Middle East, so a comprehensive listing of them, if it eventually develops into that, would be a great service to collectors everywhere! Peter

Always wanted a K's star as well but never put out the price. Now i never will, but I can still admire yours! A truly impressive hunk of metal, though doubtless curshed by many a squaddie and his Sgt Major for the aforementioned damage to the softer and 'better' gongs. I believe the Nile expedition was also the first time Canadians served Britain outside Canada. From The Canadian Encyclopedia: "On the clear understanding that the 386 "voyageurs" (most of them in fact lumbermen) were volunteers in British pay, PM Macdonald's government did not obstruct recruitment by Governor General Marquess LANSDOWNE. For 6 months the recruits helped row, paddle, pole and drag the expedition's boats up the Nile, but in vain... The expedition failed in its main purpose, but for Canadians it was an exotic opportunity to prove themselves against others from all over the growing British Empire." Peter

With Number 2 dress he should, I think, be wearing the peaked General Service cap rather than a beret but my British brethren can correct me on that. The full size medals are mounted [sewn] to a metal bar of the appropriate length -2,5,7 medlas - which has a long pin across the back, much like that on a lady's brooch only longer. The pin is threaded through the 2 loops on the tunic so the full size hide the ribbon bar.

Mike & Dodger I read the whole of this thread in one go this morning and was responding to the earlier discussion Around the two pieces Sal has. My apologies for any confusion I may have created. [or am labouring under] Respectfully, Peter

A couple interesting [to me]points hin this discussion. 1) Since at least the 1980s it seems to be the case that the Chancery does not provide info. on awards. The change occurred then, according to popular legend, when a new man took charge, one who didn't approve of people collecting orders, and ordered that queries not be answered. This may now be official policy. 2) Technically, many [all?] orders are the property of the monarch and as such should be returned to her/him on the death of the recipient. While this is clearly honoured more in the breach than the observance, there are clearly some cases in which it happens. Given the thrifty nature of the public service - [insert your own rude comment here] - it seems quite possible to me that the two awards were matched up by the Chancery. Just happening to have matching numbers would be pretty long odds, but stranger things happen. Or, perhaps - I'm not a jeweller - it is possible to put a new back on, buff down the original back or do some other magic to remove one number and allow for a second to be added! Obviously anyone - recipient, dealer, Elvis - can add a number but I'm assuming that the Chancery does in fact have access to the jewellers who made the original order and so could make a very good stamp at producing a 'restamp' which wouldn't look like a restamp. My thruppence worth! This kind of discussion is what makes this Club such a joy! well worth the price of admission. Peter

Cue the Darth Vader music from Star Wars! Although, I always thought 'The Trouble With Trivets' was a Star trek episode! [How's that for dating myself AND really really stretching for a bad pun? No, i have NO shame! ]

Classic example of a gallywhacker. Carried by the Bombay Underwater Sappers and Miners and the King's Own Royal Deserters for fighting off giant squid and Ring Necked Parrots. Seriously, Kevin, please do let us know what you find out. Some kind of sighting device perhaps?

I say! I say! GENTLEMEN'S Military Interest Club! ;)

London Gazette, 23 December, 1932 Foreign Office,November 3, 1932. The KING has been graciously pleased to appoint: Patrick Stratford Scrivener, Esquire, to be a First Secretary in His Majesty's Diplomatic Service. London Gazette, 11th May, 1937 The Order of Saint Michael ansd Saint George To be Additional. Members of the Third Class, or Companions, of the said Most Distinguished Order:... . Patrick Stratford Scrivener, Esq., First Secretary at His Majesty's Embassy at Angora. London Gazette, 9th January, 1942 Foreign Office, November 28, 1941. The KING has been graciously pleased to appoint: — Patrick Stratford Scrivener, Esquire, C.M.G., to be an Acting Counsellor of Embassy in His Majesty's Foreign Service Sorry, can't see anything else in the gazette for the period 1930-1945, but the search engine is notoriously inefficient.

'in the extreme south of Algeria' !! Sounds like a well earned clasp, even if 'all' you did was sit in an outpost somewhere and count camel saddles! I've been, briefly, in the extreme north of Niger - not too far from the extreme south of Algerie - and as they say, "If God wanted to give the world an enema..." :(

Yes, to quote a recent [German] visitor to Canada, "Hundreds of years of German culture and all people remember are those unfortunate thirteen years." Which, of course, most Germans slept through and so were unaware of! Clearly a mind that needs to be broken and re-set!

"i can got to a dealer like fred walland who sell a original 1939-45 star for £7 and africa star for a £10.why make them ?" Some people would rather steal L5.00 than earn L15.00! Not all the fakers out there are either good at it or very bright. If the stuff is being churned out in 'the east' - either the orient or the former Iron Curtain countries, the guy who made it may only get a couple of shillings, so even flogging them round boot sales will make a profit for the seller. And, sadly, the fakes are getting both more numerous and better quality. I re-enact the Napoleonic War period, specifically 1812-15, over her in North America and the belt plates, buttons and uniforms we have made for the hobby do appear on sale as originals, even in circumstances where one would think it very obvious that they can't possibly be real. To quote my daughter, "Evil will always win because good is stupid." Honesty and naivety are sadly handicapped when dealing with crooks! There are also a huge number of people out there who simply don't know enough. I've known collectors of 20-30 years experience who've never cracked a book on the subject, relying instead on 'gut feelings' and the advice of 'my buddy John' That's why this forum and others like it are so valuable! It will be a sad day when some of the real experts stop posting on the frauds for fear of helping the fakers improve but, sadly, even before then people will continue to get burned because they haven't doen their homework. Been there, still emberassed! :(

Engraved Kukris were a common retirement gift to officers serving with Gurkha troops, of whom there were quite a number in the BMP. In fact, Gurkhas and Indians outnumbered Burmese for most of its history. So, that's the reason he had a kukri with his name on it. The dating question is trickier but my first thought would be 'A mistake was made.", either on the blade itself - probably created in country by someone only somewhat familiar with Arabic numerals - or in the paper work. No K E Goddard shows up in a quick scan of the London Gazette for the 1930s, though that source has a notoriously unreliable on-line search function, but perhaps some member will have a late '30s Indian Army list and can shed some light on it. Or was that your source for the original info.? Peter

On a slightly different note, I recently listened to a news story on a Canadian runner who won gold in Korea years ago but then tested positive for drugs. He was promptly stripped of the title and, despite pathetic attempts to argue he'd been 'framed' booted out future international competition. The disturbing thing at the time was the evidence against his coach, who may even not have told the athlete - a fast runner but dumb as a stump - about the drugs. Also very sad was the fact that he suddenly became to many people a 'Jamaican' or 'Jamaican Canadian' runner instead of 'Canadian'. The recent story, however, pointed out, with corroborative evidence, that every other runner in that race, including the guy who ended up with the gold, tested positive for drugs in subsequent years. So, "all amateurs, all pure and sporting gents"? Baa! Humbug!

So, apparently the medals are not enough reward. No, I'm not taking a position, just commenting, though I tend to the 'lifetime achievement' position. Not sure about cash for Canadian winners but if they do I can guarantee its a piddly sum! probably enough to cover 2 or 3 months training costs. Agreed that money spoils sport, but what to do when some countries give athletes jobs - government or otherwise - which allow them to train 365 days a year cost free? Is enlisting them in the army and assigning them to the PT Corps a 'cheat' or just leveling the playing field to make up for what China and some of the other nations do? The notion that Olympic athletes are 'amateurs' is a pretty tattered and threadbare fiction these days, so perhaps the Cdn government is, in an unusually honest move for them, simply acknowledging that fact.