peter monahan

It was about status, for sure. Officers wore different uniforms, with different accessories, for centuries. Swords and sashes rather than belts and bayonets. Cocked hats instead of shakos. [Until that made them to easy to snipe.] Then when uniforms became similar - but not the same! - the older markers became that sacred cow of militaries everywhere, 'a tradition'. And new ones were added - ties for WOs and Officers, but not for ORs. in the Great War, officers were instructed never to be seen carrying parcels, but to have all private purchases from shops delivered. Working men carried things, gentlemen swung canes. I think one of the greatest changes brought about by WWI was the necessity of commissioning rankers. 'Not our sort', but bloody useful by 1917-18. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Peter

A 'hugh auction'. Great. I need a new Hugh!

Wow. Not the kind of 'last' anyone would personally want to claim.

I'm pretty sure they were NOT Chassepot because I wouldn't have recognized that rifle in those days - I was 22, so this was 43 years ago. My strong recollection is that they were Sniders, repurposed to fire 12 guage shotgun shells. So, the slings with the markings may have been added later or the letters have stood for something else, though I can't think what.' Sorry, that;s not much help. P

Oh, well done! Patience pays off.

Interesting indeed. At that relatively late date in China's history, eunuch's were still being 'produced'?

What a great thread! I was once lucky enough, on a film shoot, to work with a dozen old rifles whose slings were marked 'ZP', which we assumed meant 'Zoauves Papal'. They were the property of the Canadian Broadcasting Corproation, which has a huge presence in Quebec, where a number of the Zoauves were recruited, so I've always assumed some brought their weappons hiome with them. Who knows? But, yes, a fascinating group of men for many reasons. Thanks for sharing, gents. Peter

Thanks for sharing this information, Megan.

Maybe in Bavarian.

Thank you. I was going to be seriously disappointed and displeased if there were not at least a partial pun in this post. You can't raise expectations like that, Chris, and then just walk away. But what rhymes with 'Bavarian'?

Nice to see a piece this old with the interior markings so clear and complete. Lovely find! Peter

A fascinating account of Captain Keogh's awards but, in my humble opinion it rather begs the question of how his body came to be unmolested: I would not have thought that a Lakota warrior would recognize or care about a Papal medal and surely Keogh can't have been the only man in the 7th wearing a Christian cross. Were some/most/all of the bodies looted and mutilated or not?

Well done, that man! A convincing explanation for the oddity: it has been manufactured from parts. We can only hope that a careful examination will prove or disprove the theory.

Nope. I'm sure Chris is both. I was simply remarking on how word meanings change. 'Slut' originally menat a woman who had a dirty household. Nothing to do with sexual behaviour. And a 'cad' - an everyday word in 2020 - was a British trolley conductor. But they were notorious for their bad language, so the meaning morphed into 'not a very nice chap'. Shall I stop now and show myself out?

Here in Canada, 'tallboy' now describes a certain size and style of beer bottle! But then, 'gay' once meant 'happy' so... language evolves?

Hello John. Welcome to the GMIC. This is not my area of expertise at all, but I offer this, for what it's worth. 17th Lancers??? Any markings on the inside of the cap - stamps or labels?

A yacht club emblem perhaps?

No need to go into hiding. All comments, if politely phrased, can be useful and it sounds as if your credentials entitle you to an opinion on thios one.

Agreed. Any thoughts on which other languages / scripts the writing on the badge might represent? I'm afraid my old eyes can't make muchj of it, even blown up by my computer.

I wondered whether the writing might be Greek, but it's too small for me to tell, assuming I would recognize Greek, and I don't see anything Greek [and Royal] that looks similar.

I'll wade in here! [Lots of opinions, a few of them informed. ] The term 'hate belt' is, I firmly believe, the invention of militria dealers and collectors. Before the Great War, regiments of the British Army served literally all over the world and it was not uncommon, for example, to find 3, 4 or even 5 British units sharing 'the lines' in a large Indian cantonment. This occasionally led to inter-regimental riots on a beery night, but also to collecting badges or buttons of units with whom one had been stationed. These were displayed on a belt, strictly unoffical, which one might wear in 'walking out' kit. If one could get it past an inspecting sergeant! I am equally convinced that the Great War 'hate belts' were simply a development of this: Allied troops collected buttons and badges from nearby [friendly] units, bought them from German POWs for a cigarette or two and, occasionally, took them from the uniforms of men they had killed. Most of the belts contain a mixture of British/Allied insignia AND German samples, which I would argue supports my thesis. Surely a real 'hate' belt would have only the insignia of fallen foes? I am quite interested in the Great War and see these belts advertised but have yet to find an example with any real provenance, even something as simple as 'Gran'fer says he took these buttons from dead Huns.' Because they are unoffical, they don't figure in the histories and no one I know has come up with any references in letters or diaries. There are examples from WWII, and at least one from WWI, of blankets with cloth insignia sewn to them. The Great war example was put together by a Nursing Sister and has, I think, two German patches. All represent the units of men she nursed. My tuppence worht and more! Peter

Under the British system of organization in WW!, infantry companies were typically numbered and cavalry troops lettered, though most regiments had four troops - A,B,C,D - I think. The Auckland Mounted rifles was apaprently a composite unit, with three squadrons, numbered 3, 4 & 11. There is more in formation here, if you can puzzle it out, including some links to unit histories at the bottom of the page. https://nzhistory.govt.nz/war/auckland-mounted-rifles Good luck!

DPast My only contribution, I'm afraid, is to observe that many of the Auxilliary Force India units were made up of very well off Britons 'domiciled in India': The Surma Valley Light Horse, for example, was made up of tea planters. In consequence, some of them had all their insignia made in the UK, not infrequently in sterling, and were very fond of social gatherings disguised as military training: shooting competitions, 'field days' and gymnkhanas. Based on that, I'd guess that the medal marked 'Cawnpore 1907', if that is what it says, is an example of a privately purchased award given out by an A.F.I. unit. The likeliest suspects would be Cawnpore Light Horse or the Cawnpore Volunteer Rifles, as host units to an event held there. I'm afraid, however, that I don't have any more information on these units which would allow you to track down this piece. Good luck with the hunt! Peter A possible lead. But you would need to contact the BISI and order this back issue. "William Garnett, the Volunteering Major" by Michael Garnett FIBIS Journal Number 26 Autumn 2011, pages 26-30. For details of how to access this article, see FIBIS Journals He played a major role in the establishment of the Cawnpore Light Horse and on retirement to England in 1919 held the rank of Company Sergeant Major. This article contains much information about the Cawnpore Light Horse and about Volunteer Regiments generally. https://wiki.fibis.org/w/FIBIS_Journals#FIBIS_Journal_Number_26_.28Autumn_2011.29

Spot on, Bayern. 'Ranging in', we call it. Too early, too late, riught date! Be safe. Peter

I expressed myself very poorly and without sufficient care! My head is bowed in shame. The 'period' I was thinking of was the Great War, not WWII. For the former, I believe that commissioned officers of the British, Indian and other Imperial armies were not assigned 'attestation' numbers. For the Second War, they were. Thanks for the correction, Charpoy. Peter