peter monahan

Very nice work! Does it have a pin back?

I strongly suspect that the third line of Magnan's biography should read 'promoted to Ensign' rather than 'promotion of flags'. Ensign was, of course, the lowest rank of officer in the British Army in te nineteenth century and I suspect that the translator - person or computer - has taken the French equivalent and the second meaning of the English word - 'a flag' - and transposed them.

Wonder what the menus looked like?

Very nice haul! What's the lovely light blue enamelled one on the top left?

Excellent point, Brett. I don't know whether the characterization as 'iklwa' was Matti's or the seller's but clearly it needs amendation to be quite accurate.

Not my area and I haven't checked the prices, but if I were collecting to a 'unit' and could narrow a portrait down to one of two men, I'd be ecstatic! I hope one of our police collectors, or I should say 'other' ppilce collectors, Odin, can shed some like or at the very least find time to track these men further. As BigJar said, thank you for the time you've cl;early spent on this. This is the attitude which makes the GMIC my favourite forum! No egos, no put downs and many many members prepared to put themselves out 'for the hobby'. Gentlemen indeed. Peter

Sounds plausible and perhaps explains why the country is on it as well, if he was a merchant seaman or naval rating who might be wearing it in circumstances where his nationality was not otherwise evident. The Royal Navy historically threw a very wide loop when it came tio recruiting, as I suspect most navies and civilian fleets did: qualifications as a sailor trumped nationality every time.

I'm glad to hear it's something out od the ordinary then! Hard to tell from the photos. Hope you can find out something more too. Please do let us know if you succeed.

I hadn't seen this thread before and, though I'm setting myself up for a fall here, I'm not sure that Mervynn's Identification of the sword is accurate. His 'Hopital' example seems to have two bars showing on the hilt, one curved [in front] and the second with a right angle in it, which your sword doesn't appear to have. Sadly, swords are always tough even when the examples are in prime shape because so many are so similar. The hilt on your is generally described as a 'stirrup hilt' I think, which may be a tiny bit of help. Presumably the only real way to get a value would be to offer it for sale, which I think is not your intent. Discouraging!

I must confess to always feeling a guilty sense of glee when I read about this battle: the Russians getting thumped by a bunch of what they no doubt referrred to as 'primitives'. Sorry, not very Chrisitian I know. More importantly, I suppose, arguably one of the first truly 'modern' naval battles.

Matti Welcome to the GMIC! Sadly, our true South African expert, Mervyn Mitton, passed away a few months ago. He lived in SA for many years and ran a militaria/antique shop there. However, I can say a couple of things, in a general way. Zulu assegai and other African spears were made for a number of centuries as weapons and continued to be manufactured, up to the present, both as weapons and ceremonial objects and for sale to tourists and collectors. And, of course, not being 'military' in the Western sense there are no convenient serial numbers or even standarization of manufacture to help. So, it comes down to careful research and a lot of 'gut feeling' - best backed by experience. Provenance is largely a thing of the past for most collectibles now, as so many have gone through the hands of one or more dealers rather than coming to us straight from those or the families of those who acquired them and even 100 years ago these were being made for 'the trade.' That said, a couple of eneral comments. The most taditional method of attaching the head and shaft was to shrink a rawhide cow's tail over the join. So, a one piece leather tube. I see yours have leather but it looks like a wrapping to me - can't quite tell from the photo. Not bad news per se but probably means they're not really old. The shield is missing the stick which holds it rigid - as is almost always the case - but the loops of rawhide on the reverse are meant to hold that. So, it looks 'real' in that sense. They look to be decent quality but the wrappings prevent one seeing how the sockets were formed - forged or hammered over [open sided] tubes, which I believe is of significance as well. Here is the verty lengthy but also very helpful thread which Mervyn created over a period of time. Many many examples of Zulu weaponry with expert commentary on same. I hope it proves of more use than my few generalities. Again, welcome to the Club! Peter

Nice piece. I've never seen a side opening tin like that before. All the examples I know have tops which flip back. You'll need a plume as well as a badge to complete this one, Noor.

On a side note, Frank, I don't believe Ed Haynes has been a regular poster [or even reader, I suspect] on this foirum for a number of years now. He does however have his own site called, i think, South Asian Medals.

Ta!

Simply an attractive piece of jewellery, then? perhaps created for a family member or fan of the poet? It's quite beautiful, whatever it is!

Fascinating thread for those of us outside the UK, where, generally speaking we have one police service per municipal area. Of course, having said that, I have to concede that in Ottawa we have the local force and then, for National Capital Commission properties and sites, the RCMP. And private security for embassies in many cases. Still... Tower Yeoman, Parks Police, London constabulary, and...? I think that the river police are simply a division of the London force but are there any others?

Les, you sound as if you have some considerable knowledge of these things. Thank you for correcting my mistaken guess - it was a gues - on the ceremonial nature of the spear. What you say makes perfect sense. No personal knowledge of the Turkana, except that they exist, but that may give Gary a starting place in his search for a difintie ID. Thanks again.

Thanks, dave, for that info. Given the political situation in Palestine, and the British Imperial tradition of 'police forces' who were actually soldiers, I think it a safe bet that many if not most of the Palestine Police were ex-Army.

If it is in fact a segeant major's sleeve crown there would certainly have been a QVC version. I say 'if' because my knowledge of early badges is like the Missouri River: a mile wide but an inch deep!

One source, which I haven't tried to verify, suggests that the 41st was a 'problem' unit, recruited 19th century style from jails and the lower classes of Montreal society, including a number of 'Russians' whose language skills and military deportment were both deficient. As I say, I haven't followed this up but certainly, in the rush to recruit, there were men and groups of men taken on strength in the CEf who wouldn't likely have been considered in less trying times.

And done an excellent job of it too, IMO.

Gary I suspect you'll do better on an ethnology/anthropology site. Tribal weaponry has distinctive characteristics which can be broadly identified, I think: 'southern Africa', 'sub Saharan' and so on, but since all were made in local workshops, ususally with whatever metal was available, there are rarely definitive markings or absolutely conclusive identifiers. I would agree with Mickey that a two part spear is more likely to be ceremonial than a true weapon but other than that, and the fact that it was made from available sheet steel, I hev no insight to offer. Here are two sites which may be of some slight help, the first a commercial dealer and the second a gallery. http://www.rrtraders.com/weapons.htm http://www.hamillgallery.com/SITE/Spears.html

The information on Richards suggest what I would have supposed, that most of th 'British Constables' were ex-military. The Police Mobile Force established in 1944 was made up of British servicemen and the whole force was made laibel for military service during WWII, which argues military rather than police origins, IMO. It was very much a paramilitary force and previous service and hence 'reliability' were probably more important than extensive police experience. It's also likely the case that not a lot of British coppers would have been lining up for work out there, for various reasons and ex-servicemen have always provided a ready pool of 'good men' in the far reches of the Empire! My tuppence worth. Peter

Gentlemen I've been following this post with some interest, as I have a little interest but no real knowledge of things African, based on a brief stay there in my foolish youth. So, I am going to request that someone hifgher up the food chain than I move it to the appropriate forum: 'Africa'. I trust that doesn't annoy or confuse anyone. Cheers, Peter

Simple marching compases for that period seem to be selling on ebay for between $150-200 US, so I'd guess that an aviation version might be worth double that range. otherwise, I'm afraid, I have no real information for you.