Schießplatzmeister

Hello Noor: I have seen this often before. My guess is that the first position ribbon is for the MVO IV with swords [awarded to recipient as a Leutnant after a field grade promotion (probably in the reserves) during the war]. The second position is for a MVK II with crown and swords (award received when an NCO). I do not know what the official wartime regulations stated regarding this, but in practice, it was certainly common. This topic has been brought up previously. Rick will undoubtedly be able to comment regarding the official regulations. This is a great WWI (or slightly thereafter) field ribbon bar. It should be noted that there is no 1905 Jubilee Medal or Long Service Award, therefore another guess is that this fellow was probably not in service before 1914 (or much before 1914). Congratulations regarding this wonderful piece! "SPM"

Ah, yes. I should have noticed the suspension. It is a beautiful group! It is a shame that all of the documents were probably thrown away! "SPM"

Congratulations Medalnet! Is the St. George Cross numbered? If so, you are now a much richer man! Best regards, "SPM"

Hello everyone: (Paul, sorry to follow this tangential path here, but Heiko brought up an important point.) Heiko is correct about this Ebay seller who has surfaced in a number of guises. In the past, he sold only photos of items (if you read the fine print). However, the photos were not even his to sell as he steals photos from auction house web sites and catalogues. Last week he again had photographs of items that were not his. He had a comical "about me" page where he purported to show "his" official ID card with his photo to show how reputable and trustworthy he is (it is interesting that the name was blocked from view). This fellow also uses shill bidders/accounts to drive the price up and so that it seems as though the piece has really generated interest (remember, all he needs is one poor sod to bid to make this profitable). This fellow is a persistant criminal who has not given up easily. It is amazing how much effort he goes to. Why wouldn't he just get a job as a chip fryer instead? This week, he is back with this bar (I will not ruin Paul's posited question by commenting on it) which he does not own. The "seller" has become more clever in that he lists a lot of other "house clearing" type worthless garbage (DVD's, etc.) to make it seem as though he is a genuine seller. He is becoming a bit more clever in his attempts. The key is that he always has "0" feedback. Ebay is clueless and their screening is obviously horrible to allow this clod to keep opening accounts. Oh well, back to Paul's initial question. "SPM"

Hello again Eric: Well, that is good news. Sometimes it is at this stage of the deal with a "guarantee" that they state that you must "prove" that it is not genuine (sometimes with a "museum evaluation"). Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Eric: I saw one of these on Ebay listed week after week (perhaps this one, or perhaps there were many for sale). Originals are extremely rare and I do not know of any photographs of originals that can be found easily. The concensus regarding these pieces that do crop up from time to time is that they are modern copies made to deceive collectors. It is definately not a period-issued piece. The spurious "Poellath, Schroebenhausen" marks are interesting (they must have been making pilot badge copies at the same time and thought that this mark would look good on these badges). The fact that this is well made shows how convincing some of the copies (forgeries) can be. My suggestion would be to return it as soon as possible. Note: Your would be more likely numerically to find a genuine PLM on Ebay (and we know that is not probable!). Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Theodor: Thank you for sharing this wonderful source of information with us. I would assume that at this stage of the war, all "EK" recipients are EKII recipients. If someone was an EKI recipient, this almost certainly would have been spelled out, as the EK I was a very high award at this stage of the war. I am curious if there are listings of Bayerische Milit?r-Verdienst-Medaille (Bayerische Tapferkeitsmedaille) recipients. I would be very interested in that information. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello everyone: Nicely stated Wildcard. We must remember that we have chosen this as our hobby for a variety of reasons, but (I hope) mostly because we enjoy it. Every day I learn something new about my areas of interest. Those of us who have been around awhile doing this (I do not count myself among them yet) have a duty in my opinion to guide and help others. I often (with gratitude) remember the countless selfless folks who had patiently explained things to me so that I could understand fully. Some of these folks are right here on GMIC. I hope to someday have the priviledge of sharing what little information that I have gathered over the years with others (there is no higher compliment than to be asked for your "expertise"). Best regards, "SPM" Only the truly ignorant know everything. The only "stupid" question is the one that is not asked.

Hello Sascha: As you can see with the ribbon bar with the Italian Order of the Crown, the device was not worn. This award was so common, I believe that the device was probably an "overstatement" at the time. Although it was supposed to be worn, I can understand someone not wearing it. It is akin to Bavarian MVKIII recipients not wearing sword devices on their field ribbon bars. Just my opinion, unfortunately, we will never know for certain regarding this particular example. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Sascha: My guess for the blue ribbon would be the 25 Year Civil Service Cross (with no device on the ribbon). Best regards, "SPM"

Hello everyone: Since this item has "sold" for ?667,68, I would surmise that there are others who share my scepticism as I believe that most Bavarian collectors would pay at least ?2.500 for one of these very rare pieces without hesitating. An interesting world in which we live indeed! "SPM"

Hello folks: Someone has listed the following item on Ebay.de: http://cgi.ebay.de/Koenigreich-Bayern-Sani...id=p3911.c0.m14 The photograph is from a former Hermann Historica auction. The offer is therefore a fraud in my opinion. There is also a RAO IV (last type) with Crown and Swords listed which also looks like a pirated photograph. I do not believe that this "seller" has either item. Caveat Emptor! "SPM"

Hello Dante: All of the awards seem fine. It looks to me though as though the EK ribbon is probably of modern stock. I also see a bit of cotton? padding sticking out on the right side of the EK ribbon. My guess is that someone "upgraded" this from a standard EK bar to a non-combatant bar. But, the only way to tell for certain is to have it in hand. Best of luck with this. "SPM"

Hello everyone: This bar looks perfectly fine. The only problem to note is...."The MVOx is marked for silver content with some remains of silver wash". If the MVO is silver (ie, has content markings), then it should not have a "silver wash" or plating. Perhaps there was a clear coating and where this remains, the surfaces didn't tarnish????? What are the markings exactly, and what is there location? This looks like an earlier piece with gold centers and multi-piece center medallions. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Dante: Yes, it is a standard WWI-era awarded piece. So, this was a Junior Officer who didn't survive until 1934 (no Hindenburg Cross). Best regards, "SPM"

Thank you for your warning Jason! This is indeed the same fellow again. He is even using a photo of ex-Heiko's Bavarian Officer's bar with service in China again! This fellow is a very persistant criminal! He couldn't stop wasting oxygen soon enough as far as I am concerned. "SPM"

Charles: This piece looks to possibly have a painted iron wreath and a silver center too! It is very close to the "Meybauer" piece of mine, of course without the markings, and the pin is very slightly different. Interesting! "SPM" p.s.: The more that I look at the piece that started this thread, from the obverse, it looks like the wreath and center are made from brass which was then plated/painted (it is difficult to tell thought due to colour variation with scanners/cameras). Sorry, I see that Ferg1 already noticed this!

A bit of paper to go along with the hardware. "dem Gefr. d. L. I. Mathias Be?er/ R.I.R. 118, 8. Komp./ 21. 8. 1917" On the reverse: "Im Felde, den 31. Aug. 1917.", Unit stamp, Signature (I can't read it), and "Obstltn. u. Rgts-Kdeur." Sorry, I had trouble getting this to show-up any larger than this. "SPM"

Hello ccj: I checked the piece in my collection and it does indeed have an iron wreath which is finished with black paint. The center is silver and is marked "925" and has the "Meybauer" marking. The intent I believe was to have this be a sort of EKI equivalent. Hence the name "Krieger-Ehrenzeichen in Eisen" (Warrior Decoration in Iron) and hence the use of iron to construct the wreath. Undoubtedly, there were genuine period pieces which were all made of "Kriegsmetal" which was finished accordingly. So, a non-magnetic wreath does not necessarily constitute a dud. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello ccj: It doesn't have to be magnetic to be an original piece. I am just curious if it is a ferrous alloy. I believe that I have a piece that is, but I will have to re-check my piece to be certain (I simply can't recall). Best regards, "SPM"

Sorry folks: I didn't mean to be so abrupt with my last post [sometimes I love to hear myself talk (write)]. I think this would be a good point for members to post photos of their original 25 Year Oak Leaves. It can easily be shown what is genuine, so that those pieces will be the standard, and so that a poorly cast forgery will be easier for folks to spot (by deduction). Not science, but the closest thing we could probably come up with. Tom, I know that you can point us in the right direction! I apologize to all of the non-EK folks for de-railing the discussion regarding the group which originlly started this post. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello ccj: It looks right to me: It seems to have a silvered "kriegsmetal" center and an iron wreath which was painted black. Is the wreath magnetic? Congratulations! "SPM"

Hello Vic: In my eyes, you were VERY smart to post these photographs! We are all on a learning curve with these items. There was a day not long ago when I would have possibly plopped down hard-earned cash for a piece such as this. It is always smart to post photos of items here BEFORE you purchase them if you have any doubts about them (just don't mention who is selling it). There is a wealth of knowledge available from the folks who frequent this site (and a lot of folks who specialize in the Pour le Merit?-I however do not). I hate to frighten you, but there are very good quality copies of PlM that I believe often fool relatively experienced collectors. I still do not have a PlM. Perhaps someday, but I am patient. I know of a few outstanding pieces in collections. Only once-in-awhile at rather high prices do genuine pieces surface for sale. So, save you money and be patient (and post those photos!). Best regards, "SPM"

Hello all: I see that a scientific analysis is requested regarding the 25 Year Oak Leaves. Without handling the piece to weigh and measure it, I can't provide any except to state that this particular item is unlike ANY known originals. Unless this particular one-of-a-kind privately made piece has been tucked-away since 1895, no one else has ever seen one like it either and has never published a record of it. To "prove" that it is not original is impossible, unless I caught the individual in the process of making it yesterday, took the piece as evidence, took photographs, and had witnesses sign statements supporting my claim. This would be necessary because most asuredly, later-on the forger will certainly deny that they made the piece in question. What I have come to rely on are texts regarding the subject matter (old and new), auction catalogues (old and new), the viewing of pieces in collections, and the opinions of fellow collectors who specialize in certain areas (Iron crosses are not my particular "specialty"). I don't mean to take the fun out of collecting, but if we are not honest with fellow collectors, then the same mistakes will be made again and again by others. I know that I have made a great many mistakes collecting, but I hopefully grow from them and hopefully become a bit wiser for the future. Best regards, "SPM"