Schießplatzmeister

Hello Wildcard: Thank you very much for finding the particulars regarding this outstanding group! It is good to see the image of it and see what else was there (it was a few years since I had seen it and I could not remember). This was a fantastic group that Eric was very proud to own! Best regards, "SPM"

Hello again Sascha: I too would vote to leave this bar as it is! Either the veteran or his family (after he passed-away) undoubtedly sewed the miniature medals to the bar. I would bet that he actually wore this thing this way in later years! To mess with it would be a shame. To make it comform with regulation and statutes would take away from its historical significance in my opinion. Happy New Year! "SPM"

Hello everyone: I have been on the sidelines on this one, but though that I too had to now comment. Daniel, I believe that the statement that you made muddies the water a bit. I would like to share my personal opinion (not that it was asked for, or anyone particularly cares regarding this). As a general thought regarding Imperial-era German Orders and medals, I believe that the word "fake" should not encompass genuine "deluxe-grade" pieces that were privately commissioned by recipients and better than awarded pieces in quality. I also believe that the word "fake" should not encompass replacement pieces actually worn by the recipient regardless of when they were made. Such pieces in my opinion are "copies" and are not to be confused with "fakes" which were never worn by recipients and were made to deceive collectors only. So, Komtur's piece is a "copy" and not a "fake" in my opinion. So, this being said, a "copy" without solid provenance must in MOST (but perhaps not all) cases be regarded as a "fake" when it comes to PLM Order pieces encountered on the market. This is a great discussion and some excellent points are being made! A Happy New Year to all! "SPM"

Hello Saschaw: WOW!!!!! Congratulations to you and your father for owning such a rare and beautiful group (I don't care about the lack of enamel, gold, or silver)! I only ever recall seeing one other group with a genuine engraved Felddienst-Auszeichnung. Many years ago, there was an 1870-71 Baden Officer's group for sale in a US auction. The OZL was missing from the group and the reverse of the group was not shown in the catalogue. The group didn't seem that significant and I didn't give it a second notice. Eric Ludvigsen was the winner of the lot in the auction. One day when I was visiting him, he showed me the reverse of the group! I nearly fell to the floor! The campaign medal was engraved! Unfortunately, I do not specifically remember which battle name was engraved on the medal, and unfortunately, I do not remember the exact awards (1870 EKII, OZL, Baden campaign medal with battle name engraved, 1870 campaign......??????) After Eric passed-away I kept thinking that the group would surface in a Thies auction, but it never did. I do not know where it went, but there may be some members who visit this site that might know. I have been checking the back of every Baden campaign medal that I see ever since seeing that group, but sadly no luck! Best regards, "SPM"

Hello folks: The top medal is a municipal firefighting medal (but what municipality I do not know). Best regards, "SPM"

Hello again Chris: Since "Alfons" is a rather common name, I am certain that there are probably a good many Gold and Silver medal recipients with this first name. A list could certainly be made-up with a bit of work, but without a last name, a unit, or a home-town, we will probably never be certain who this fellow is. "SPM"

Hello Chris: Well.....maybe! The ribbon is for a silver OR gold Tapferkeitsmedaille! Do we have a last name? Best regards, "SPM"

Yes Christophe, this is the same "seller". He is using the same passport image again on his seller's page. "SPM"

Hello again: This criminal has indeed been removed from Ebay. I believe that he will return once again soon, so keep an eye out for him. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello all: I see that this fellow had even added more listings! I filed a complaint (once again) with Ebay. It appears as though they have removed this individual's listings (until next time). The fact that this fellow keeps returning to Ebay shows how pathetically poor their initial verification process is for opening an account. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello pinpon590: The original case is black and rectagular with a flat top. On the outside of the lid is the crowned cipher "WR" (Wilhelm Rex) in gold blocking. Here is a link to a photo on a commercial website which shows such a case: http://www.derrittmeister.com/productpages/05987.htm The case is very easy to find as it is the same as all of the other 3rd and 4th class Prussian Crown Order cases. The Bavarian case is rather scarce, so if you buy the piece and don't want the case, please let me know as I may be interested. Best regards, "SPM"

Bonjour de nouveau Pinpon 590: Oui, ce cas est pour MVO bavarois. Le cas pour l'Ordre de Couronne prussien est beaucoup diff?rent. Ce cas bavarois est assez rare! Salutations distingu?es, "SPM"

Hello: The cross looks genuine. It is impossible to tell regarding the "Geneva Cross" without high-resolution photos however. The case is the best part of it! The case is for a Bavarian MVO circa 1866-1880's? It is by Adam Hausinger. The case is probably worth more than the badge. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Noor: I have seen this often before. My guess is that the first position ribbon is for the MVO IV with swords [awarded to recipient as a Leutnant after a field grade promotion (probably in the reserves) during the war]. The second position is for a MVK II with crown and swords (award received when an NCO). I do not know what the official wartime regulations stated regarding this, but in practice, it was certainly common. This topic has been brought up previously. Rick will undoubtedly be able to comment regarding the official regulations. This is a great WWI (or slightly thereafter) field ribbon bar. It should be noted that there is no 1905 Jubilee Medal or Long Service Award, therefore another guess is that this fellow was probably not in service before 1914 (or much before 1914). Congratulations regarding this wonderful piece! "SPM"

Ah, yes. I should have noticed the suspension. It is a beautiful group! It is a shame that all of the documents were probably thrown away! "SPM"

Congratulations Medalnet! Is the St. George Cross numbered? If so, you are now a much richer man! Best regards, "SPM"

Hello everyone: (Paul, sorry to follow this tangential path here, but Heiko brought up an important point.) Heiko is correct about this Ebay seller who has surfaced in a number of guises. In the past, he sold only photos of items (if you read the fine print). However, the photos were not even his to sell as he steals photos from auction house web sites and catalogues. Last week he again had photographs of items that were not his. He had a comical "about me" page where he purported to show "his" official ID card with his photo to show how reputable and trustworthy he is (it is interesting that the name was blocked from view). This fellow also uses shill bidders/accounts to drive the price up and so that it seems as though the piece has really generated interest (remember, all he needs is one poor sod to bid to make this profitable). This fellow is a persistant criminal who has not given up easily. It is amazing how much effort he goes to. Why wouldn't he just get a job as a chip fryer instead? This week, he is back with this bar (I will not ruin Paul's posited question by commenting on it) which he does not own. The "seller" has become more clever in that he lists a lot of other "house clearing" type worthless garbage (DVD's, etc.) to make it seem as though he is a genuine seller. He is becoming a bit more clever in his attempts. The key is that he always has "0" feedback. Ebay is clueless and their screening is obviously horrible to allow this clod to keep opening accounts. Oh well, back to Paul's initial question. "SPM"

Hello again Eric: Well, that is good news. Sometimes it is at this stage of the deal with a "guarantee" that they state that you must "prove" that it is not genuine (sometimes with a "museum evaluation"). Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Eric: I saw one of these on Ebay listed week after week (perhaps this one, or perhaps there were many for sale). Originals are extremely rare and I do not know of any photographs of originals that can be found easily. The concensus regarding these pieces that do crop up from time to time is that they are modern copies made to deceive collectors. It is definately not a period-issued piece. The spurious "Poellath, Schroebenhausen" marks are interesting (they must have been making pilot badge copies at the same time and thought that this mark would look good on these badges). The fact that this is well made shows how convincing some of the copies (forgeries) can be. My suggestion would be to return it as soon as possible. Note: Your would be more likely numerically to find a genuine PLM on Ebay (and we know that is not probable!). Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Theodor: Thank you for sharing this wonderful source of information with us. I would assume that at this stage of the war, all "EK" recipients are EKII recipients. If someone was an EKI recipient, this almost certainly would have been spelled out, as the EK I was a very high award at this stage of the war. I am curious if there are listings of Bayerische Milit?r-Verdienst-Medaille (Bayerische Tapferkeitsmedaille) recipients. I would be very interested in that information. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello everyone: Nicely stated Wildcard. We must remember that we have chosen this as our hobby for a variety of reasons, but (I hope) mostly because we enjoy it. Every day I learn something new about my areas of interest. Those of us who have been around awhile doing this (I do not count myself among them yet) have a duty in my opinion to guide and help others. I often (with gratitude) remember the countless selfless folks who had patiently explained things to me so that I could understand fully. Some of these folks are right here on GMIC. I hope to someday have the priviledge of sharing what little information that I have gathered over the years with others (there is no higher compliment than to be asked for your "expertise"). Best regards, "SPM" Only the truly ignorant know everything. The only "stupid" question is the one that is not asked.

Hello Sascha: As you can see with the ribbon bar with the Italian Order of the Crown, the device was not worn. This award was so common, I believe that the device was probably an "overstatement" at the time. Although it was supposed to be worn, I can understand someone not wearing it. It is akin to Bavarian MVKIII recipients not wearing sword devices on their field ribbon bars. Just my opinion, unfortunately, we will never know for certain regarding this particular example. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Sascha: My guess for the blue ribbon would be the 25 Year Civil Service Cross (with no device on the ribbon). Best regards, "SPM"

Hello everyone: Since this item has "sold" for ?667,68, I would surmise that there are others who share my scepticism as I believe that most Bavarian collectors would pay at least ?2.500 for one of these very rare pieces without hesitating. An interesting world in which we live indeed! "SPM"

Hello folks: Someone has listed the following item on Ebay.de: http://cgi.ebay.de/Koenigreich-Bayern-Sani...id=p3911.c0.m14 The photograph is from a former Hermann Historica auction. The offer is therefore a fraud in my opinion. There is also a RAO IV (last type) with Crown and Swords listed which also looks like a pirated photograph. I do not believe that this "seller" has either item. Caveat Emptor! "SPM"