Schießplatzmeister

Hello all: In my opinion, Saschaw is correct, a 15 years service cross should go in the last position. The recipient was probably at least an Unteroffizier (based upon his MVOMVKIIm/schw. award). He had been around for awhile pre-war most likely. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello everyone: Scott, RAO is 100% correct and knows what he is talking about. These copies are well-known in Germany. Sorry! Yankee, yes there ARE nice-looking (at arm's length anyway) GOLD RAO II and III copies out there. I have seen them offered by someone from Hamburg. They are well made, but not as good as the originals. I think that perhaps they were being made by jewelers to the east of Germany (Poland?, Russia?, etc......). Caveat emptor! "SPM"

Sorry: I am having trouble with my system and I hit the "Add reply" button once too many times. "SPM"

Hello again Scott: OK, the dealer NOW letting you know what else "came with it" makes it easy to decide! RUN AWAY! Perhaps these are some of the pieces that he found ON the bar when he received it? Perhaps these are some of the pieces that belong on it. Something seems a bit strange here. "SPM"

Hello Scott: Here is some advice I will share (I know that no one asked for it!). If you have to think about this bar this much, you should probably pass on it! Save your money for the bar that you see, and know in an instant is good (you will always be happy with that one!). There will be other bars that come along that will be for the right price and will be without a doubt in your mind 100% genuine. If you have doubts now, these worries will possibly grow after you own it. Also, at some point you will have to convince someone else that it is OK to get rid of it. The bottom line is, that no matter how many folks look at it and say it looks OK, YOU have to be happy with it. I have always fared well by avoiding items that cause me the slightest doubts regarding authenticity. Now, that being said, I do not like the EKII, nor do I like the KVK. I think they both possibly look like higher-quality copies! Best regards, "SPM"

Heiko and Stogie are right! The fellow added his Ehrenkreuz to his WWI-era medal group. Had it been properly re-mounted, the EKII would be in the first position, followed by the Ehrenkreuz, FAM, and his Sachsen LS Medal. I have seen other bars like this with economical additions to the bar added by the recipient. Sometimes, pieces of metal or even cardboard were added as a backing to extend the bar. The result isn't pretty, but the fellow wore it with pride. These types of bars are certainly genuine and interesting! Best regards, "SPM"

Hello folks: I believe that Ulsterman was a bit generous in lumping me in with the other folks mentioned! I discussed it all with the Mrs. and she stated that I don't know a bl**din thing! Welcome broken9597 to the forum! As someone stated, the "authentication" process in this business is sometimes a bit off. I just saw a "PLM with Oakleaves" today on Ebay. The illustrious dealer who is selling this piece of trash mentions that he is "well known" (yes, so many have been shafted by this fellow that no one can forget him!). For everything that he sells he mentions that the product offered is "the real deal". This fellow can't stop waisting oxygen soon enough as far as I am concerned. Folks like him have ruined collecting for a great many. Sorry about the diatribe! I notice three (3) things immediately about your piece: 1) The ribbon without a doubt is the 1870's-era issued ribbon (harder to find than the cross!). 2) Someone cleaned the piece. As a person who started collecting coins this sort of thing makes me cringe! But I know that most medal folks don't care. I personally like things that have a nice patinae. 3) The small enamel cracking/chip on the reverse is the greatest detractor regarding value. We can be a bit pickey when looking for pieces for our collection. In all, an interesting piece that from what I see looks authentic. Congratulations regarding your find. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Chris: To the best of my knowledge (as limited as it often is) there are no known sources for the citations regarding these awards. However, even though I do not own a copy, I believe that Nickel may have possibly covered some of the actions leading to the awards of 100 soldiers of so. I also believe that Ophaus may have mentioned the actions of a few soldiers in one of his smaller books. Unfortunately, the citations however have never come to light as far as I know. One would have to look for the Regimental history for a particular unit to acquire further specific knowledge (if it exists). Best regards, "SPM"

Hello again: A great question. These medals were at the first part of WWI struck in 14 carat gold (585/1000). I do not recall off-hand if these were marked "585" on the ring or not. However, to the best of my recollection, they were marked thusly. All gilded-silver medals are supposedly "copies" as they were not issued (as Rick mentioned). But "copy" in this instance means something worn by the actual recipient, and not something made last week (although undoubtedly some folks have gotten creative and started gilding silver medals to increase the "value"). To me, the "800" mark on the ring is a sign that this is an older "copy". I image that it was not uncommon for a recipient to keep his genuine gold medal at home in the case and to wear a silver-gilt medal on his mounted bar. The gold medals were rather generously awarded (compared to the "gold class" awards of the other Kingdoms). I have seen cast copies of the "333" gold medals, so beware when looking to purchase one. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Scott: What a beautiful bar (as all of yours are)! Thank you for sharing it with us. To clarify, a "333" mark is for 333/1000 parts gold. This tranlates into 8/24 on the carat scale. Thus, the medal is approximately 8 carat gold. This is the last type that was issued. It is amazing that W?rttemberg issued medals with gold in them right up to the end of the war! Best regards, "SPM"

Hello everyone: I believe that the 4th medal from the left is the Bavarian Agricultural Jubilee Medal to be more specific. So, we have a farmer, soldier, and fireman. A busy fellow! I also believe that this photograph went to a collector in Bavaria . Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Scott: Yes, such a thing is possible in particular circumstances. Regarding this particular bar, I am at a lost to explain it. I am certain that there are others here who can however. Specifically, I have seen groups to Gendarmerie members that had Prussian long-service awards and long-service awards for their particular state perculiar to police service. I believe that there are also other possiblities such as Seebatailon troops, etc. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Herr General: Congratulations regarding this nice group of miniatures. Unfortunately, since the RAO is a 4th Class and the recipient was from the Netherlands, there is probably no way of finding out more about it from German records (there were simply too many RAO IV awards made domestically, and to foreigners). Perhaps there are rank lists or "Court and State Handbooks" for the Netherlands which will possibly show who the recipient may be. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello again: In 1955 he was a member of the "Orden der Bayerischen Tapferkeitsmedaille, Ortsgruppe Freilassing". His address was listed as "Bayr. Gmain". So, he survived both wars and lived to at least 75 years of age! Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Naxos: Here is the "rest of the story": "Eichinger, Josef Feldw.Ltn. der 3. Komp. b. Res.Inf.Rgts. 16. Im Frieden Gendarmerie=Sergeant in Oberg?nzburg. Geb. 24. 3. 1879 zu Uttenhofen in Scwaben. Feldwltn. Eichinger der 3. Komp. b. Res.Inf.Rgts. 16 ?bernahm nach dem Tode des Kompagnief?hrers sofort die F?hrung der Kompanie und zeichnete sich in den Versolgungsk?mpfen zwischen Oise und Aisne, besonders beim Sturm auf Montecouve und aus die Schlucht bei Bagneux am 30. 5. 1918 aus. Durch r?cksichtslosen Einsatz seiner Person und gro?e Unerschrockenheit trug er mit zum Gelingen der beiden St?rme bei. Einen feindlichen Gegensto? starker Massen wehrte Eichinger mit nur 2 Gruppen Infanterie durch seine Entschlossenheit und ausgezeichnete Tapferkeit ab." Congratulations on owning this nice card! Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Rick: The large medal IS an official Baden Merit medal (late 1800's coinage) that had the reverse-center raised inscription removed and was engraved. The original suspension was also removed and this variation added. The FW medal is a Weimar-era town piece. It looks as though someone took an old Grand Duchy medal that was laying around and modified it to their needs. We look at such things today and cringe, but at the time, they probably had no other use for it! Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Naxos: Yes, there is one (1) medal group mounted in this fashion out there. I believe that it is at the Burg Hohenzollern and that it belonged to Wilhelm I (if my memory serves correctly). Best regards, "SPM" Here is a link to information regarding Burg Hohenzollern: http://www.preussen.de/de/heute/burg_hohenzollern.html

Hello Noor: Your RAO IV is of the type awarded from approximately 1890 until 1918. This particular piece however I would guess was definately made prior to 1914. I believe that the "N" marking on the ring stands for the maker "Neuhaus" but I may be mistaken as I am away from my reference library at the moment. Unfortunately, almost all RAO IV badges that are damaged have damage to the center. So, your chances of finding a center piece in good condition are probably rather slim. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Sivart: The brown ribbon with white stripes on the first lapel ribbon group is for a Third Reich NSDAP Service Award 1st Class (lowest class) in Bronze. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Stefan: I only have a listing of 1813-1815 EKI recipients and not EKII recipients. There are early Prussian Ranklists which exist, but unfortunately, I do not have any of them. If he was an Officer though, this would be the proper method of finding out about his service. Unfortunately, if he was an enlisted soldier, without other documentation from the family, there is almost no easy way to find out more about him. Please forward my congratulations to your friend for owning (an preserving) such a fine piece of history. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Everyone: Rick, thank you for the comments regarding this document. It belonged to v. Braun in Alabama and I obtained it from the estate collection. I had NO idea how rare it is. What puzzles me is that it looks as though is says "unsere" Anerkennungs=Medaille, instead of stating the class of the medal. Which medal does this document correspond to exactly? Hopefully, this scan will be easier to see. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Gentlemen: I saw this on Ebay.de also. I did not bid although I have rather a special interest in the Bavarian MVM/TKM. I have NEVER seen a recipient wear three (3) MVO/MVK ribbons. I suppose that such a thing could be possible (it would not be Official practice to wear three ribbons) if a recipient made-up a field ribbon bar for himself, but it is highly unlikely. The only thing that I have seen which is close is a recipient of the Gold MVM/TKM who received the MVK III with swords and crown who then received a field grade commission as a Leutnant. He went on to be awarded the MVO IV with swords. So, his ribbon bar would possibly have had the MVM/TKM ribbon, his EKII ribbon, his MVO IV ribbon with a silver swords device, his MVK ribbon with a bronze crown and swords device. He died in the 1920's. If he had survived to get his "Hindenburg" Cross with swords, the EKII ribbon would then be mounted in first position. A recipient would wear ribbons for ONLY the highest grade of the military (with swords) MVO received and the highest grade of the military ( with swords) MVK received. Three (3) such ribbons would NOT be worn. It WOULD be possible in my opinion to have two military MVO/MVK ribbons and one civilian MVK ribbon (but unlikely). In my opinion, the field ribbon bar was put together recently and was not ever worn by a recipient of these awards. I do not like the way that this piece was sewn together. It is rather crude looking. I would like to see the stitching under UV light (I imagine that it would glow). Be glad that you were outbid! Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Everyone: I remembered that I had this document in my collection and thought that it might be of relative interest due to the topic at hand. All comments would be welcome. Best regards, "SPM" I know that Rick is cursing me! I am "scanner challenged" and am having trouble posting a readable image with the 110k limit, and yes, I know, I should have purchased an Epson! Sorry folks.

Hello Rod: Your cross sounds like it is as it should be [except for the ribbon, which should be a black ribbon with two white side stripes (like an iron cross ribbon)]. The "W" should be rather roughly scratched into the bottom cross arm. This indicates that the piece was made by Wagner of Berlin. I am not certain if the swords are supposed to be gold or not, but I am certain that there is someone on our forum who will know the answer. I am also not certain if the sword pieces should be threaded and screwed into the center of the cross, but I believe that this is correct for the period. And yes, these crosses were awarded for the DSWA and Boxer (China) campaigns. Do you have a photograph of it to share with us? Unfortunately, there are copies of these about. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Stefan: This is a very nice ORIGINAL ~1830's? EKII. I have never personally seen one of these with a marked eyelet. This is a very interesting feature. I am at a loss to read the markings however. That the letters present are "EB" is not clear to me from the photo. Best regards, "SPM"