Soviet Valor medal rarity?

[Gerd Becker]

I understand your point , but i think, its possible to appreciate both aspects of the hobby, the history and research behind this medals and the variations, which were issued over the years. At least i do enjoy both very much and i am happy, when i get to know, who got one of the awards in my collection for what. I am also not too focused on combat awards, i enjoy awards for supplying food,to give an example, as well, as they are also representative for what this Orders or Medals were awarded. Everytime i look at my Screwback-ORB, for example, i see the awardees face and think about the circumstances of the award. But i also like to research the Variation and subvariation of this piece, especially, as it means much more to me than just a piece of metal.

Gerd

Edited August 11, 2006 by Gerd Becker

[order_of_victory]

MONDVOR,

Sorry I got confused about wings tracks etc.

I should never post any thing before I go to bed

On the subject of Variations, I personaly dont see the attraction, i no i have a few variations but they kind of happend, and make a usefull comparison, but I would never go out of my way to buy a variation, unless it was dirt cheap.

Order of Victory

[Ed_Haynes]

Dave makes some very powerful and important points, with which I am in absolute agreement. HISTORY!!

There is also a tendancy -- and those of us in the developing world of Mongolian awards have to contend with it constantly -- toward a dynamic that wants more and more and more types and varieties and sub-varieties and sub-sub-varieties, extending down almost to the electron-microscopic uniqueness of each individual award. If there are true varieties that may divulge something about the phaleristic history and changing award processes of the award, fine and dandy. If, however, we are just identifying "noise" in the manufacturing process, minor differences in each batch as they were made up with all the errors and sloppiness of manufacture (making medals is NOT rocket science), then what of any substance are we doing? (Other than giving collectors more items they need to tick off on their checklists -- "Oh, look, a rare type 4, variety 18, sub-variety 42.8 of the ___ -- gotta have it!!")

My two hundred Tugriks or five Kopecks worth,

Ed

[Mondvor]

Guys:

Sorry for seeming a bit outspoken by this, but one of my few "buttons" that can be pushed in the Soviet collecting world is the tendency for some folks to find every variation possible and charge excessive amounts for those variations. I am aware that most Soviet awards collectors (especially when considering those in Russia) are actually more "variation" than "historical" collectors, so I do have to appreciate the position of the majority, even if I cannot completely understand it myself.

Part of this sensitivity comes from a really neat little group I once sold that had a nice photo of the recipient and his wife, a couple orders, and then the fellow's jubilee medals with all documents. I researched the group and it had nice combat citations.

I sold the group and not more than two weeks later I saw the buyer list all of the jubilee medals and documents up on eBay! I quickly e-mailed the seller who promptly told me that he wasn't interested in any part of the group other than one of the orders that was a rare subvariation, and that he could really care less about anything else with the group!

I was floored! For all these years, the group had been kept together, and then, just because someone wanted to fill a blank hole in their collection, they decide to split the group - and to what value? Maybe $20 for the jubliee medals with documents? How hard would it have been to have simply put those in a ziploc bag and kept those with the group???

I started collecting Soviet awards because I thought they were neat looking and I really appreciated the suffering the people of the USSR faced for many years. By owning the awards it was my way to connect myself and in a physical sense understand what they went through. Thus, when we started researching groups in about 1996/7, that fit my collecting interests perfectly - I could find out EXACTLY who the person was who earned the award and what they did for it. To me, that became the joy of collecting Soviet awards, far and above that of German or Mongolian awards - which are "pretty", but are all too often untraceable to exactly who the recipient was and the sacrifices they made to earn that award.

So to me, I can understand the position of the person who collect variations, though as I said above, I'm not one of them. It does sadden me greatly to see groups get split as I saw that one get split because of someone wanting a rare variation to fill a hole in their collection. That sort of thing makes me wonder if a person like that might not be better at collecting something like bottlecaps, or perhaps baseball cards, that do not serve as reminders of people's sacrifice in war, and can fulfill a person's need to collect every different style and type.

That's just my opinion, and I know that it isn't shared by many people reading this. We're all different, and that's okay.

Thanks for reading.

Dave

Dave, I think here is some kind of "apples" and "oranges" mixed together. Neither me nor other forum members didn't even mention about splitting any group for taking rare variation out of it. The only idea was that we like variations and this is it. If I find interesting variation within a group I would simply keep the whole thing. The story that you told us is awful and this person was quite stupid to break a group apart. But do not judge about Russian collectors because of that case. I know many of them and believe me that most of them are very interested in "historical" part of the award. It's kind of sad to hear from you this opinion about collectors from former USSR. Many of them are even more educated in historical part of the awards than you cam imagine. As for me, on my "scale of values" the story behind the group (or single award) is a top priority. That's why I already researched most of my groups and plan to research more. But variations hold "number 2" position in my priorities. Every variation is a part of own award's history. It tells us about statute changes, about different mints it was manufactured with and many others.

[Mondvor]

Dave makes some very powerful and important points, with which I am in absolute agreement. HISTORY!!

There is also a tendancy -- and those of us in the developing world of Mongolian awards have to contend with it constantly -- toward a dynamic that wants more and more and more types and varieties and sub-varieties and sub-sub-varieties, extending down almost to the electron-microscopic uniqueness of each individual award. If there are true varieties that may divulge something about the phaleristic history and changing award processes of the award, fine and dandy. If, however, we are just identifying "noise" in the manufacturing process, minor differences in each batch as they were made up with all the errors and sloppiness of manufacture (making medals is NOT rocket science), then what of any substance are we doing? (Other than giving collectors more items they need to tick off on their checklists -- "Oh, look, a rare type 4, variety 18, sub-variety 42.8 of the ___ -- gotta have it!!")

My two hundred Tugriks or five Kopecks worth,

Ed

Ed, I totally agree about "powerful and important points" made by Dave. Award's history is cool and extremely interesting thing. That's why I love it with all my soul.

But I would not agree with you about "variations" and "subvariations" importance. We should not underestimate their value. Let me ask you very simple question. If you would not study small variations, "watermarks" and other things that you called "noise in manufacturing process", how would you protect yourself from fake makers? Nowadays they produce high level fakes and without a knowledge of small details of each variation you simply would not be able to recognize a fake. You can buy an order and pay for a full research but what is a reason to research a fake? If you need an example just remember screwback BH. Little study on mintmark's configuration of this variation could help you to avoid big mistake.

So I think that going deeper to the structure of the awards (even to the limit that you called "electron-microscopic uniqueness") could probably help each end every of us to resist fake-makers.

I think we should consolidate our forces in this direction

[rboomsma]

Little study on mintmark's configuration of this variation could help you to avoid big mistake.

So I think that going deeper to the structure of the awards (even to the limit that you called "electron-microscopic uniqueness") could probably help each end every of us to resist fake-makers.

I think we should consolidate our forces in this direction

Very good point, I remember Alexei a well respected dealer once mentioned the only good way to tell a Hero star is authentic (because 0f the good fakes out there). Is that it has to be examined with a very good microscope. But he would not say what you had to look for, in order to not let fakers correct the mistake.

Also variation collecting is all many of have left due to the prices now. In order to improve our collection we buy the lesser cost medals. So I don't understand the negitive attiude towards collecting variations. Same with many collectors only wanting mint condition orders etc.

In many other collecting hobbies such as stamps, coins, paper money, rare variations have great value.

Lets face it, even though many of us collect because of the historical aspect, we still want to get our value $ out of our collection at some point.

[Alfred]

I think, these are all versions, Ron.

I try to get as many variations together of ORB?s and OPW 2nd classes and Red Stars, as these offer a lot of varieties and subvarieties and the common ones are still quite affordable. Of course i will never be able to own one of the very early types, but i really don?t care. I have a lot of fun to hunt for a variation, which is still missing in my collection. I buy groups too, but try to get groups with variations, i don?t have already.

Hello Gerd,

a few variations ....

regrads

Andreas

[NavyFCO]

Dave, I think here is some kind of "apples" and "oranges" mixed together. Neither me nor other forum members didn't even mention about splitting any group for taking rare variation out of it. The only idea was that we like variations and this is it. If I find interesting variation within a group I would simply keep the whole thing. The story that you told us is awful and this person was quite stupid to break a group apart. But do not judge about Russian collectors because of that case. I know many of them and believe me that most of them are very interested in "historical" part of the award. It's kind of sad to hear from you this opinion about collectors from former USSR.

Andrew:

Here's the rather interesting "rest of the story" regarding the split group. I was able to e-mail the seller and convince him to keep the medals with it, even offering him the value of the jubilee medals just to keep the group together. He agreed to do that. You're probably quite curious as to who this "evil" person could have been... All I am going to say is that you and I both know him, and ironically, I now consider him one of my friends! Now isn't that an odd twist???

I did not mean to sound like I was judging all Russian collectors. I am certain that there are many out there who appreciate the history of the groups as much as I do, especially considering that most - if not all - have close family connections with the veterans of the War. Yet at the same time, when I was living in Russia between 1992 and 1996, and when I was bringing groups over in large quantity during the 1999-2002 time period, I would be told by my contacts that often they would have to reassemble groups, or that missing pieces were gone because one person wanted the one rare item out of the group. (Of course, sometimes it made it very nice... eliminate a Suvorov 2nd from an otherwise "plain" group and you have a neat group for considerably less money! ) I also saw a number of groups get split on the markets in Moscow while I lived there. Of course, at the time, no one really cared all too much about all the documents, photos, etc.... Sad, but true.

The other side is that the only times I have seen my research "dissapear" from a group is when it went over to Russia and then came back to the US (or in one case, never came back.) In one case, the award had what my researcher considered to be "the best combat citation he had ever read" with it, yet when it came back up for sale after being in Russia, the research was 100% missing. Could it have gotten lost? Or went missing? Possibly, but in the one case where I bought the research back from the group, the new buyer (a collector in Russia) simply didn't want it. A bad apple? I am certain. And I am just as certain that you could substitute "American" or "Canadian" or "German" collector for the "Russian" in the above story and have it apply just as much.

At the same time, perhaps I just ran into some bad apples, which is always the case in every hobby!

Anyway, this has been a good thread and has brought up some good points on both sides of the fence. I, for one, didn't think about the need for finding all the subvariations to identify fakes, but in reality, that's the only way to do it and do it right. And thanks to everyone for being good "gentlemen" on what would probably have evolved into a brawl on any lesser forum.

Dave

Edited August 11, 2006 by NavyFCO

[NavyFCO]

a few variations ....

Oooooohh.... Prettty metal!!!!

But have you researched them yet???

[Gerd Becker]

Hello Gerd,

a few variations ....

regrads

Andreas

Andreas, i hate you

[Alfred]

Oooooohh.... Prettty metal!!!!

But have you researched them yet???

--------------------------------------------------------

No Dave, I haven?t researched them yet. Unfortunately the third Nevski is not mine.

My next research projet will be on two high serial number Red Stars.

3.714.591 and

3.687.452

In three months I will post the results here.

best regards

Andreas

[Mondvor]

Andrew:

Here's the rather interesting "rest of the story" regarding the split group. I was able to e-mail the seller and convince him to keep the medals with it, even offering him the value of the jubilee medals just to keep the group together. He agreed to do that. You're probably quite curious as to who this "evil" person could have been... All I am going to say is that you and I both know him, and ironically, I now consider him one of my friends! Now isn't that an odd twist???

I did not mean to sound like I was judging all Russian collectors. I am certain that there are many out there who appreciate the history of the groups as much as I do, especially considering that most - if not all - have close family connections with the veterans of the War. Yet at the same time, when I was living in Russia between 1992 and 1996, and when I was bringing groups over in large quantity during the 1999-2002 time period, I would be told by my contacts that often they would have to reassemble groups, or that missing pieces were gone because one person wanted the one rare item out of the group. (Of course, sometimes it made it very nice... eliminate a Suvorov 2nd from an otherwise "plain" group and you have a neat group for considerably less money! ) I also saw a number of groups get split on the markets in Moscow while I lived there. Of course, at the time, no one really cared all too much about all the documents, photos, etc.... Sad, but true.

The other side is that the only times I have seen my research "dissapear" from a group is when it went over to Russia and then came back to the US (or in one case, never came back.) In one case, the award had what my researcher considered to be "the best combat citation he had ever read" with it, yet when it came back up for sale after being in Russia, the research was 100% missing. Could it have gotten lost? Or went missing? Possibly, but in the one case where I bought the research back from the group, the new buyer (a collector in Russia) simply didn't want it. A bad apple? I am certain. And I am just as certain that you could substitute "American" or "Canadian" or "German" collector for the "Russian" in the above story and have it apply just as much.

At the same time, perhaps I just ran into some bad apples, which is always the case in every hobby!

Anyway, this has been a good thread and has brought up some good points on both sides of the fence. I, for one, didn't think about the need for finding all the subvariations to identify fakes, but in reality, that's the only way to do it and do it right. And thanks to everyone for being good "gentlemen" on what would probably have evolved into a brawl on any lesser forum.

Dave

I think I know who are you talking about Some of my friends have same kind of attitude to documents and researches. They are simply not interested in "stories". And I am constantly trying to change their point of view. Sometimes it works. One of my old friends in Ukraine finally shifted to documented groups and even asked me to make a research for him...

I didn't know that you spent several years in Russia. What city did you live? Then you should agree that it was a horrible time. The big country just broke apart into pieces and chaos and disintegration covered everything. I remember empty shelves in the stores and huge lines for food. Very bad criminal situation, many local gangs, mafia and so on. Unemployement, inflation, etc. One hundred dollars was a treasure. That's why poor people sold out their father's awards almost "for a song". At this time (1992 - 96) the majority of high-ranking awards were brought to USA and Western Europe by Russian dealers. Of course at that time not many people in Russia were thinking about research. They were trying to survive. To be honest, not many American collectors were aware about the possibility of research as well. I think that only after 1996 first attempts to research something were made.

Now things changed in Russia and Ukraine. You should visit those countries again. You'll be surprised. Now you can buy everything if you have money - from the newest BMW model to antique French collector's wine. There are many wealthy people called "new russians". Some of them are smart, some are not. But most of them like to invest money. And big percent of them invested their money to awards. And after 2001 the backflow had started. Many interesting groups returned back to Russia from USA and Germany, because Russians payed double and sometimes triple price. But I hope that sooner or later the prices should stabilize. Otherwise I'll switch to collecting bugs and butterflies

Edited August 11, 2006 by Mondvor

[JimZ]

Gentlemen,

Re groups and splitting or not. I agree that a group should be kept intact because of its history. Much as it hurts to see a group split up however, once a group is sold the responsibility passes from dealer to buyer and much as I disagree with it, the buyer is after all free to do as he pleases, even if this breaks a fundamental unwritten code of ethics when dealing with medals. My word to dealers would be that if you are really collectors at heart and if you really feel heartbroken about your group being broken up, then do not sell the group in the first place or at least try to watch out who this is sold to!! Its impractical....I should know!

My experience - I did once have a lovely group of British medals which was very dear to me and I did want to sell this to finance my present collection. However I asked buyers to take time to contact me as I would only sell the group if this was to be retained as such. It did complicate my life with all the correspondence I received. And of course, there was no real guarantee that the end buyer would not eventually split it up! But thanks to my screening this group finally went to a person whom I now also know personally. Even better, I can go see this group whenever I am in the same country! But that is why I chose to be a collector and not a dealer!

On another note, I have personally witnessed the "creation" of groups. One case was on ebay when an ORB was first advertised as a standalone piece and as it remained unsold (due to a ridiculous reserve) it later found itself on a group bar the week after. I gave the guy flak and blacklisted his auctions (and i hope others did same!)

Either way, my view is that a group has its own energy and just like energy which cannot be created or destroyed, A MEDAL GROUP SHOULD NOT BE CREATED OR DESTROYED!! And collectors, when you witness dealers splitting up or creating groups please avoid them rather than support them!!

Jim

[Mondvor]

My respect to jimzammit

You just suggested very wise idea about selling out the groups. If some collector wants to get rid of the group because of some reason, it is better to offer this group to fellow collectors at first. And only if no one is interested, then pass this group to a dealer or to EBay. Doing this way we probably can save many groups.